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 Spring Homemades?
m15399
Posted: Mar 22 2006, 05:01 PM


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Ok, I was thinking about the splat blaster and its spring powered PC, and I thought, "Why not a homemade Splat Blaster?" It wouldn't be to hard to build if it was simplified. What I'm worried about is the power. How much power did you think we can get from a spring?

With springs, it would be easy to make pistols, shot guns, bolt action, gatling guns, etc. The coolness factor would rise 200%! Plus they would be some of the first homemades with triggers.

I know all you people are going to say that they aren't practical, they won't be useful, they won't get enough range, but I think it would be cool to have a pistol that cocks like an air soft springer.



What do you guys think about spring pressure homemades?
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Some Guy
Posted: Mar 22 2006, 06:03 PM


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I think that if you could find a reliable system that works with good range, output, and reliability it would be great. The problem is that for range you need a strong spring, output you need a large volume (or and extremely long chamber) and it would be awkward to get filled. I did experiment once with a small tracked pump (like a PPP mini) with a spring from a nerf nitefinder, and the results were bad, with a range of about ten feet and tiny output.

EDIT: Spelling

This post has been edited by Some Guy on Mar 22 2006, 06:04 PM


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m15399
Posted: Mar 22 2006, 07:04 PM


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I looked on McMaster. Lots of springs. They even go up to 60 lb pull... yeesh... The NF feels like a 3-5 lb pull, so if I got some ~20 lb pull springs, it might just work!
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m15399
Posted: Mar 23 2006, 04:28 PM


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I've been talking to a member of NerfHaven and he seems willing to try shooting water out of his spring homemades. I'll let you know how that turns out.
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SilentGuy
Posted: Apr 22 2006, 10:03 AM


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Spring homemades--I've been thinking about those.

Like Buzz Bee's PreChargers, I think the Splat Blaster has quite a bit of potential, but lacks a clean execution. In other words, a homemade version of the Splat Blaster could use what Buzz Bee uncovered in their first attempt to make a pretty crazy homemade.

Springs definitely carry a lot of power--as m15399 said, they can store a great amount of force, but more importantly, they release it all at once. The water can come out of the nozzle so quickly that an output "per second" measurement will be too inaccurate (you'll really be measuring how much water comes out in one second, not the rate). We need to measure a spring homemade's output in milliseconds, or something like that. That's what makes the Splat Blaster a great prototype for a shotgun soaker.

The problem with the use of a spring is that it will be hard--indeed, very hard--to release the water and empty the chamber at a rate that matches the spring's output rate is a tough challenge. Buzz Bee made a great attempt at this by using, instead of a slow ball valve, a cap that clamps down on the nozzle orifice. Unfortunately, this probably won't work for a spring of at least 20 pounds--the cap would just blow open, and even so, that would happen so slowly that it would disrupt the stream lamination. That' why Buzz Bee also uses a pin to secure the spring, which is probably too complicated for a homemade.

Okay, so using a pin isn't that complicated. However, there still lies a problem: if we were to use both a "clamp valve" for the nozzle and a pin for the spring, we'd have to get the timing perfect. There appear to be two workarounds for this: (1) allowing the clamp valve to blow open on its own, and (2) using no clamp valve.

I prefer the latter option, radical as it may seem, because of the inherent mechanical problems with the clamp valve. This new option, with absolutely nothing stopping the actual water from exiting the soaker, might still work for various reasons: (1) no force is being exerted by the spring because of the pin, and (2) the nozzle orifice is small enough (only a slight restriction to output), which prevents air from entering through the nozzle and displacing water.

Yes, there is a flaw with this proposal: while pumping, water will simply exit through the nozzle rather than compress the spring. However, we can still perform a workaround: a ball valve! Yes, we have come full circle, back to the ball valve. The idea is to close the valve while pumping, in order to force the spring to compress; however, the pin will always hold the spring back, no matter how much the spring is compressed, so the ball valve can be opened while not pumping. When it is opened, the user may squeeze the trigger to release the pin.

Yes, this design is a bit inefficient, but that is why I posted it. Is it possible to use a shortcut, like in the Splat Blaster, to use the trigger to open the ball valve and then release the pin? In addition, the pin can only lock the spring between the wire; thus, if the water has been pumped to a point where the wire is blocking the pin, then when the ball valve is opened, the spring will move slightly, shooting water, until the pin snaps back into place. This isn't good, and it will probably wear down the pin.

EDIT: Wow, this post is even longer than I expected it to be!

This post has been edited by SilentGuy on Apr 22 2006, 10:04 AM


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m15399
Posted: Apr 22 2006, 06:14 PM


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Pin should work fine. When you pump, you don't pump water into the front; you draw it out by pulling the plunger back. Think Nerf. You don't need a ball valve or anything.

This post has been edited by m15399 on Apr 22 2006, 06:15 PM
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Some Guy
Posted: Apr 22 2006, 07:01 PM


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Just to double check- would there be something for the pin to hold back on the plunger besides the o-ring? I'm assuming that that would be the case, because then water might leak and the seal might be compromised if the pin just held back the o-ring.

Also, did the guy at NerfHaven test shooting water out of the nerf homemade yet? Just trying it out seems to me to be the best way to see if it would work.


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m15399
Posted: Apr 22 2006, 10:08 PM


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The pin enters a small hole in the piston in nerf guns, which would work well for super soakers. The guy at NH has not done this, yet, but I will ask him about it again. wink.gif

If anyone has any idea abotu how well these will perform, please speak now, or forever hold your peace.
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Doom
Posted: Apr 23 2006, 09:26 AM


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Personally, I would create spring homemade water guns using completely conventional methods. No pins, nothing complicated. The spring is the power source and compressing it will create force. It can be compressed on the back of a piston.

Then again, rethinking the design, it would be extremely attractive to have a water gun that operates from one single pull.

Now, to get more technical, the force of the spring will not be constant and that really makes it a little more unattractive to me. Fs = -K*x, where Fs is the force of the spring, k is the spring constant, and x is the displacement. If the spring is compressed, x becomes negative and if the spring is stretched, x is positive. There will be drop-off in this system, but I don't suppose it will be too heavy.

I'll be talking to my brother about the possibility of a spring-powered water gun because I know he has experience making a few spring-powered homemade Nerf guns. wink.gif


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m15399
Posted: Apr 23 2006, 01:15 PM


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If you would, try putting a nozzle on a spring Nerf gun and shoot it. I tried to get the guy at NH to do that but he hasn't yet.

Does conventional means mean using a ball valve? The only problem would be getting the valve to fully close while you pump.
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wetmonkey442
Posted: Apr 23 2006, 02:50 PM


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What would a "spring powered" water gun really accomplish? You would still have to pump water in front of the spring, or manually pull the spring back to charge it. After that, the spring forces the water through the nozzle, and you repeat the process. I think that most people can pull more than 20 lbs., so why not just use a piston style soaker? As Doom said a spring's force is not constant. It's not going to push as hard as it de-compresses.

This post has been edited by wetmonkey442 on Apr 23 2006, 02:50 PM


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m15399
Posted: Apr 23 2006, 08:05 PM


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The responce to my reminder:
QUOTE
Thanks for reminding me...I forgot about that test, and spring snuck up on me. Well, I got outside to test it, not really knowing what to expect. I used the SNAP I made for my writeup, a 4" stub of .5" PVC for a barrel, and a .5" endcap with a 1/8" hole drilled in it. I filled it by submerging the barrel and slowly priming. Damned if it didn't get 30' flat, 40' angled, once the system was filled with water. Air tended to make sort of blowhole-ish spray. I can only imagine how much it'd get with a slightly smaller hole...1/16" might be very nice, although it's cool sneding out that might water inside of a second.

Hope this helps...let me know if you need anything else.

Carbon


What do you think?
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20quid
Posted: Apr 24 2006, 01:55 PM


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I think it would work and may even get a good distance but battle practicality needs to be considered. It would only have one shot and then the spring would have to be reset, plus as said before the force the spring exerts is not constant and so may behave differently from what you expect or need at that moment in the battle.
I would prefer a simple, air pressure design any day, especially when they show you can get good results without over-complicating anything.


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Some Guy
Posted: Apr 24 2006, 03:43 PM


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That sounds like a pretty good result to me, one prime that can be done from any water source, and it has a trigger. With a bigger spring (like 30-25 pound pull) it would probably be a great homemade backup gun.


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wetmonkey442
Posted: Apr 24 2006, 08:02 PM


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Forgive me for being the devil's advocate, however a homemade piston soaker is cheaper, easier to make, and has better stats.


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Some Guy
Posted: Apr 25 2006, 04:50 PM


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The main thing about these are their consistency (when compared to a piston soaker), trigger, and compactness. I think that the gun he tested with was under a foot long.


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SilentGuy
Posted: Apr 26 2006, 08:58 PM


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I only intended my design, as I'm sure m15399 did when he started the thread, to be a backup weapon. This is for when 3 guys pop up out of nowhere--you just pull out your shotgun on riot blast and, in a single instant, unload your entire PC, 40 or 50 pounds' worth of force (a lot of pumps), on your target. Then you run away while pumping the soaker back up.

@ Doom: You pointed out that there will be dropoff--however, all the water will be released instantly (why the output per second is poor at iSc's review). If you meant that pressure depended on the number of pump, then you are correct. However, using a PreCharger-like setup, before battle you should be able to screw in the base that the spring is connected to, compressing and already charging it up. This way, you'll have at least partial reduction of dropoff.

@ wetmonkey442: Of course you need a pump and all. I'm not talking about a weak 20-pound spring, I'm talking about at least twice that much. That's what I call power.

@ wetmokey442, 20quid, etc.: It's natural that a standard APH will be more efficient, cheaper, etc.--and that's part of what makes this a situational gun. As I said, there are very specific uses for this, and nothing else (empties PC in one go, possibly low range, etc.). This is not anybody's primary weapon--it's a backup. Don't trust it with your life.

@ people who criticize the valve: I'm completely open to suggestions concerning what type of valve to use; it is a tough concept. We need something that can both seal well and that can open almost immediately, which is why the only idea I could think of was a ball valve/pin combination. Feel free to make comments on this.

Of course, ball valves aren't exactly needed. This gun doesn't need near-perfect lamination because it isn't designed for long range, whether it can handle that range or not. I'll look at other, more appropriate valves if the need arises. Besides, these would be much simpler to implement.


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Doom
Posted: Apr 27 2006, 02:04 PM


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QUOTE
@ Doom: You pointed out that there will be dropoff--however, all the water will be released instantly (why the output per second is poor at iSc's review). If you meant that pressure depended on the number of pump, then you are correct. However, using a PreCharger-like setup, before battle you should be able to screw in the base that the spring is connected to, compressing and already charging it up. This way, you'll have at least partial reduction of dropoff.


The water will not be released instantly. Output is a function of force and nozzle area. If the opening was large enough, it will release nearly instantly. However, with a nozzle of appropriate size, the drop-off will be quite obvious.


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isoaker_com
Posted: Apr 30 2006, 11:08 AM


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QUOTE
why the output per second is poor at iSc's review

If this term is poor, what would be the preferred means of determining how much water a soaker pushes? The main problem with output/sec is simply that it's very hard to measure shots that last below a second accurately without requiring more sophisticated measuring equipment.

I've talked with Big Bee about potentially increasing the piston size inside the Splat Blaster to make the shot a little more hefty. The general idea of the Splat Blaster is good. However, the problems with putting in larger springs is that smaller kids may no longer be able to pressurize the system. The lever pump gives more leverage, but since it is single-pump based, more force is needed in the initial pull.

A more conventional pump to pressurize the spring similar to air and bladder-based CPS systems would reduce the strength needed per pump, but them increase the number of pumps required to charge things. If the system ends up being similar to how rubber bladder or air pressure systems are set up, why bother using a spring except, perhaps, for the possibility of creating a more linear PC set-up to improve stream flow lamination.

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m15399
Posted: Apr 30 2006, 11:45 AM


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Using multiple pumps would defeat the purpose of it being a shotgun. I would make it with a more powerful spring and a bigger (better shaped and placed) reservoir to keep parents of three year olds from buying them a soaker they can't pump.
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