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 Lizardmen player seeks change of scenary, Can Beastmen fit the bill? What to buy?
walkertexasranger
Posted: May 8 2012, 10:42 AM


Bestigor


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Posts: 106
Member No.: 5,406
Joined: 6-May 12



I'm at present running a Lizardmen army, with considerable success, but have realised that what I really enjoy is running around with skinks and generally being extremely aggressive......which Saurus aren't that suited too.

So I'm thinking of starting a Beastmen army, as I really like the aggressive nature of the army and the general synergy between the different components.

So my question is what should I be looking at buying if I want to run an extremely aggressive list (not necessarily a good list! If I merely wanted to win I'd stick to the Lizzies)? Clearly a battalion box, but I'm not that interested in the large gor/ungor blocks that seem to populate most lists: these troops are in essence cowardly Saurus minus 1 attack when used like that (and as I said, Saurus bore me...they are a very predictable unit).

Things that do interest me:
-AMBUSH. Is there a way to really build an army around this rule? There seems to be some synergy with characters, which I like
-Ungor raiders: these are basically like skinks with lamer missile fire but don't actually suck in combat
-Chariots. Lots of them!
-Minotaurs
-Bestigors or buffed Gors, but in smaller numbers (say 20-25).......I know this means my enemies are likely to be steadfast, but I think that's something I can live with
-As many of those cutsie rare units as I can fit in. I don't mind that some of them seem to suck, they just seem fun to play.

Will this kind of list work AT ALL? Am I just insane?
All comments appreciated!
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bfeijter
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:07 AM


Ungor


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If you take ghorus warhoof you can make centigors core.
There are some (moderate) succesfull lists going with lots of centigors and some pigs/chariots smile.gif
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walkertexasranger
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:20 AM


Bestigor


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Joined: 6-May 12



Centigors I'm not that keen on.........if they were Fast Cavalry I'd go for them straight away however.....pity

This post has been edited by walkertexasranger on May 8 2012, 11:30 AM
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Myrdin
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:26 AM


Doombull


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If you wanna run highly damaging, menacing unit, that has aggression in its nature, you are looking for a Minobus smile.gif

Though the concept of "bus" units is pretty old (dates back to the old Bretonia armybook - which is basically their only viable way to play), it does offer o lot of aggressive gameplay, and our Mino lord is one of the tougher guys, and looks pretty good as well - especially with the right customizations wink.gif

Also charriots, as random as they might be are pretty bad ass, especially the Razorgor one (those pigs you just have to adore).

Army list centred around a minobuss might be the right thing to satisfy your lust for blood and glory smile.gif


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Myrdins Beastmen, Nippon Empire and Tau - diary with a mash up projects for all 3 of my armies.

Chronicles of the Beast - Made up lore and stories for my Natural Beastmen
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walkertexasranger
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:35 AM


Bestigor


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Posts: 106
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Joined: 6-May 12



That does sound good, smashing the living daylights out of things as opposed to attrition combat is more my style........but it has a slight deathstar unit feel to it that I'm not a fan of.
As you can probably gather, I lean towards a MSU style army (although I don't go extreme end of the spectrum).

I like running rings around the enemy (the fun in tying a unit up in knots is amazing!) which is difficult to do when you have a massive unit of minotaurs.

Is it possible to combine this with having a pile of stuff in Ambush? I should just build some lists and see how the points pan out, but I'm keen to hear all the experienced Beastmen players take on it before I get too attached to the idea
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Scarr, man-hunter
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:53 AM


Bestigor


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Joined: 18-December 10



Then maybe using some Chariots a small unit of Gors for a Great Bray Shaman to hide in and some Harpies to swarm the enemy easily. It might work really well, and many of your units can cause damage for little points while your Minobus is unstoppable killing everything.

This post has been edited by Scarr, man-hunter on May 8 2012, 11:53 AM


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If trees fall, I will groan.
If houses fall, I would have known.
After all this I still cannot see
why my lands don't belong to me.
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walkertexasranger
Posted: May 8 2012, 11:59 AM


Bestigor


Group: Member
Posts: 106
Member No.: 5,406
Joined: 6-May 12



That sounds fun, I like the idea of frustrating my opponent smile.gif

But it still sounds a little too deathstar-y. Part of the reason Lizzies are boring me is the Temple Guard + Slann bunker: basically the game boils down to whether my opponent can kill that unit (and win) or fail to kill it (and lose). It's very prone to luck as a deciding factor in the game (both in wins and losses) and doesn't feel that satisfying.

With the Beastmen I was hoping I could have a more balanced approach: no one unit they can beat up on and win the game, and generally to bombard them with multiple headaches rather than one (which with skill they may be able to avoid/deal with)......does that make sense at all? Kinda sounds like I want to have my cake and eat it too rolleyes.gif
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The Charioteer
  Posted: May 8 2012, 12:33 PM


Funny man


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Before you say nay to the centigor list, look up ghorros warhoof(the user, not the spec char) and learn his teachings. He was simply the most amazing gamer in existence ever. He also wrote kickass bat reps. Just read his stuff. Heres a link to his MSU thread

http://z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index...showtopic=22796


Miss that guy sad.gif

This post has been edited by The Charioteer on May 8 2012, 12:33 PM


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QUOTE
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Scarr, man-hunter
Posted: May 8 2012, 12:38 PM


Bestigor


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Joined: 18-December 10



The only really big problem with that list though is that you need to be good at playing it, which can be hard to manage.


--------------------
If trees fall, I will groan.
If houses fall, I would have known.
After all this I still cannot see
why my lands don't belong to me.
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snowblizz
Posted: May 8 2012, 01:02 PM


Grand Arbiter of Fun, Ph.D.


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QUOTE (walkertexasranger @ May 8 2012, 11:59 AM)
That sounds fun, I like the idea of frustrating my opponent smile.gif

But it still sounds a little too deathstar-y. Part of the reason Lizzies are boring me is the Temple Guard + Slann bunker: basically the game boils down to whether my opponent can kill that unit (and win) or fail to kill it (and lose). It's very prone to luck as a deciding factor in the game (both in wins and losses) and doesn't feel that satisfying.

With the Beastmen I was hoping I could have a more balanced approach: no one unit they can beat up on and win the game, and generally to bombard them with multiple headaches rather than one (which with skill they may be able to avoid/deal with)......does that make sense at all? Kinda sounds like I want to have my cake and eat it too rolleyes.gif

The problem is that you already said you don't want to take that list.

Because that's the Gor horde + Bestigor list.

Beastmen have a problem in that everything is just expensive enough that you can't really have it all.
All our heavy hitters suffer from being slower than the opposition so needs to be taken in greater numbers to grind since we can't punch with small units. And that means there just isn't that many credible threats the Beastman army can put on the field.

Taking Gor and Bestigor and backing it up with a Herdstone shaman spam does allow us to use more units as credible threats through the augments/hexes.

At the end of the day you either *want* to play Beastmen and take what works that is as close to you want as possible. You won't be able to shoehorn the Beastmen into whatever playstyle you want.


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arty
Posted: May 8 2012, 01:33 PM


Gor


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Agressive list would be.

Lots of Gors, ungors for ambush.

Lvl 4 and lvl 2 wild shaman so you can summon a monster in thier back turn 1.
(and use the movment spell).

Flying doombull or beastlord.

Scout with a shaman on a chariot.
Add a huge deep block of gors coming from the front.
Have 2 jabberslythes.
(and a huge group of scouting harpies).

Meens by turn 1 you might have 3 monsters, doombull, chariot, harpies and some scouts inside his deploy.



Just a fun list if you want something really aggressive. But not the best really.

This post has been edited by arty on May 8 2012, 01:38 PM


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Playing: Beastmen and High elves
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walkertexasranger
Posted: May 8 2012, 01:50 PM


Bestigor


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Posts: 106
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Joined: 6-May 12



@Charioteer: that looks like more what I was after! I'll have to spend some time in detail to read it and think about it. He talks about a lot of the things I was thinking about when considering Beastmen (although I was thinking of different units to achieve similar but different goals). Biggest issue I can see is that he hasn't outlined how the MSU centigors are going to get around the characters issue (apart from saying that it is an issue, which I agree with).
But I can't deny that such a list looks like a LOT of fun to play!

@Scarr: Only way one gets good with a list is to play a lot of it, so may as well start eh?

@snowblizz: you're not wrong, but at the same time I don't see that many lists on here that use the Ambush rule, and certainly not very extensively. For me that's the clinch: without Ambush a Gor/Bestigor list seems kinda stranded in no-mans land: not a true horde army (not enough units), not an elite army (not good enough), not a Deathstar (spreads it's points) but not a range of threats (only about 1 threat: the Gors/Bestigors getting you in a hammer/anvil situation). These are the kind of lists I (not a gun general by any means) trash on a regular basis with my Lizzies, as they are unable to fit a way past a Temple Guard unit + Slann with Skinks guarding the flanks (and the rear.....in fact everywhere). They simply don't have enough tricks up their sleeve.
Minobus armies trash me all the time, but as I said that's not really my thing.

Arty is thinking more like my list below, and I would love to give his a try as it looks SOOO Fun.....just not sure how the points work out? It might not be very competitive but meh, could work with practice.

Anyway maybe I should just throw out a list I made and see what people think/what improvements they can suggest.

Here's what I came up with:

Lords (Points: 270)
Khazrak the One Eye

Heroes (Points: 270)
Ungrol the Four-Horn (attached to Ungor Unit #1)
Wargor, BSB w/ The Beast Banner, additional HW + Shield + Heavy Armour

Core (Points: 946)
Ungor Unit #1: 30 Ungors, Musician (AMBUSH)
Ungor Unit #2: 30 Ungors, Full Command (Khazrak goes in here)
Gor Unit #1: 25 Gors, w/ Shields, Musician (AMBUSH)
Gor Unit #2: 25 Gors, w/ additional HW, Full Command (BSB goes here)
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #1: x 5 w/ Musician (AMBUSH)
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #2: x 5 w/ Musician (AMBUSH)
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #3: x 5 w/ Musician (AMBUSH)
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #4: x 5 w/ Musician
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #5: x 5 w/ Musician
Ungor Skirmishers Unit #6: x 5 w/ Musician

Special (Points: 236)
Razorgor x 1
Razorgor x 1
Bestigors x 10, Musician

Rare (Points: 275)
Ghorgon OR Jabberslythe

Total: 1997

Idea: with Khazrak to give rerolls to Ambush roll opponent has to assume units are NOT going to be appearing from my table edge. So they have the option of deploying to the flanks (where it is highly likely my units will emerge) or in the centre (and hoping like hell I don't roll too many 6s). The idea then would be to run something scary up the middle which they are then forced to either charge/take a charge from or be flank charged trying to present their front to the units on the flanks (which will flank charge them if they don't)

Ambushing units: Gors with shields (to allow them to survive the spells/missile fire that is definitely coming their way) and Ungors (Ungrol = Ld upgrade, because as I see it lack of access to the general is the biggest issue with Ambushing Ungors) are too big to ignore as they can challenge for steadfast. Raiders are too small to be anything but a nuisance (although arrows can be directed so as to drop ranks below the needed threshold), so they will just get in the way/make units chase them/provide hard cover for the big units behind them.

Non-Ambushing blocks: Gors with BSB have some hitting power (18 attacks @ strength 4 if arranged 4x6) whilst Khazrak leads hitting power to the other block. Idea is that these units will advance up the centre to provide the kills for combat res when they flank/read charge the units that have turned to face the Ambushing units (who's job is mainly to remove steadfast).....from using 60+ scouting Skinks (back in 6th ed Liz, when that was an upgrade on the basic Skink) I've learnt people get VERY uncomfortable about numerous large units appearing behind them (doesn't happen very often in WH, mostly either 1 unit or they are very small).

Razorgors: double-charge for the fear test, or sacrificial to hold up a unit if they have more than me (unlikely, bar Skaven).

Bestigors are there as a counter to high AS units (so only need enough for a single combat phase), but are the part of the list that makes the least sense ("does any of it make sense?!?" I hear some laugh).

Ghorgon/Jabberslythe is for distracting them on turns 1-2 (I assume it will be dead by that point): this will be run up the centre for them to shoot at/charge......as if they fail to kill it, it will make a BIG mess. I'm thinking that the Jabberslythe is the better option, given Fly will get it in their face VERY fast indeed, and the Ld-based attack will be great against horde armies (which are likely to have the unit numbers to deal with a significant number of Ambushing units).......but the Ghorgon is Stubborn, which is handy for trying up a unit for a long time.

Issues: MAGIC. Yep, that's a MASSIVE bummer. This list would work really well with some Bestial Surge/Lore of Beast Buffs, and Ungrol's special ability is 50% wasted by not having any other Wizards. Suggestions there?
Chariots would be heaps better than Gors/Ungors to run up the centre, but in order to get the Ambushing units I have to use them.........doh
Leadership: with close to half the army nowhere near the General/BSB, this list courts disaster. I suspect I'm underestimating the risk due to my Lizzie background (Cold-blooded rule makes even Ld 6 extremely reliable, and 8 is near unbreakable). But everything is testing on 7 or better, which is the magic threshold in terms of mathhammer, and much on Ld 9 rerollable.

This list I fell would eat Gunlines (they don't do well when they are only clearing 5 Raiders every turn and units big enough to roll them in a single combat are appearing out of their firing arc) and DeathStars (going to end up charged on every side, provided Raiders manage to outmanouver whatever chaff they have brought)......but to a balanced list would FAIL miserably.

So there we are. I'm fairly unfamiliar with the army book, so this list may well be illegal for all I know haha.
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kris_kapsner
Posted: May 8 2012, 02:45 PM


Doombull


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If you are looking for just a fun list to play, your list will be fine.

We have some advantages and some disadvantages with our army book. In general, our biggest disadvantage isn't that our units aren't good, they are. But, it's that they are over priced compared to units from other army books that are similar. On the flip side, we have the advantage of having some of the best cheap chaff in the game. Take advantage of that.

I ran the following 2400 point list at my last tourney on May 5th and won. It's a fun list to me. But, it does have some of that "death star" feel to it that you said you weren't a fan of. So, going less character heavy while using those points to bring more blocks of gor, ungor and bestigor might be a better allocation of points for your playing style. The concepts remain largely the same though. And, there are 12 units in my list, which gives you a lot of deployment flexibility.

In deployment, you gain a huge advantage being able to put 4+ units of ungor raiders, 3 razorgor and a unit of harpies on the table before you have to place anything else that is important to your win. That means that your opponent has had to place 8 units of their before you're placing a single one you care about of your own. In 2 out of my 3 games my opponent was done placing their units before I got to my ghorgon, minotaur, gor, ungor and character units. Fantastic!

Lords (353 points)
Doombull: Heavy Armor, Shield, Gnarled Hide, Many-limbed Fiend, Sword of Swift Slaying, Dawnstone, Ramhorn Helm

Heroes (600)
Gorebull BsB: Heavy Armor, Shield, Talisman of Endurance (5+ward), Sword of Striking, Iron Curse Icon
Gorebull: Heavy Armor, Charmed Shield, Brass Cleaver
Bray Shaman: Level 2 Beasts, Chalice of Dark Rain

Core (612)
Gor: 30 with full command and additional hand weapons
Ungor: 43 (5 wide tarpit) with musician and standard
Ungor Raiders: 5 with musician
Ungor Raiders: 5
Ungor Raiders: 5
Ungor Raiders: 5

Special (550)
Minotaur: 6 with musician (minotaur characters placed in front rank)
Harpies: 5
Razorgor: 1
Razorgor: 1
Razorgor: 1

Rare (275)
Ghorgon: 1
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Fafa
Posted: May 8 2012, 02:58 PM


Gor


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QUOTE
-AMBUSH. Is there a way to really build an army around this rule? There seems to be some synergy with characters, which I like

Doesn't work. Even with re-roll. Ambush is rather kind of " possible threat" than "actual threat" (it forces enemy to consider that it actually may work and has more psychological effect). Never seen it as a game breaker (though I admit it sometimes manages to achieve some effect).

QUOTE
-Ungor raiders: these are basically like skinks with lamer missile fire but don't actually suck in combat

Much lamer fire and they suck in combat. Main role: redirectors and chaff.

QUOTE
-Chariots. Lots of them!

Some say they had interesting results with them but I never seen one on tournament scene. Chariots are nice add on, but I wouldn't relay on them.

QUOTE
-Minotaurs

Already mentioned Minobus. Though not necessarly a death star (begins battle this way but in next turns Doombulls sometimes leave unit to charge on their own).

QUOTE
-Bestigors or buffed Gors, but in smaller numbers (say 20-25).......I know this means my enemies are likely to be steadfast, but I think that's something I can live with

Hordes!!! That's what beastmen are for! smile.gif Gors are good (and with beast banner very good). Bestigors are good but prefer large numbers (or really deep ranks). Big units are also easier to buff with wyssan's, have steadfast (Ld is issue with Beastmen) and are more durable (shooting attrition, combat loses).

QUOTE
-As many of those cutsie rare units as I can fit in. I don't mind that some of them seem to suck, they just seem fun to play.

Actually all of them suck but some a bit less than others smile.gif There is a reason why almost all beastmen players skip rare's section...

QUOTE
Will this kind of list work AT ALL? Am I just insane?

Mixing everything up? Depends on scale but I would say it doesn't (on large points - 4k+ - maybe). As someone mentiond - beasts are too expensive to take everything. Concentrate your list on main theme (minobus, hordes, even chariots) and then add some flavour / eneablers (strong magic around herdstone, some ambushing gors/raiders to hunt enemy's backoffice, redirectors: harpies, raiders).

PS. Yes, you are. Just a bit... wink.gif
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rothgar13
Posted: May 8 2012, 09:21 PM


Beastly Beastlord


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To be honest with you, I don't think Beastmen really have what you're looking for. You're looking for a MSU-ish, movement-intensive army, and I don't think Beastmen do that very well at all, especially compared to the true MSU/MMU armies such as Wood Elves, Warriors of Chaos, and Ogres (you can talk me into Empire here as well, if they don't bring many State Troops). Our book has some units that seem capable of it on the surface (Centigors with Ghorros and Chariots most notably), but cost-efficiency and reliability just isn't their forte, and you will suffer against anything but the softest competition. We do several things well (re-rolls to hit, buffing/debuffing magic, generating extra power dice, Hordes, chaff, character-stars of doom), but apart from that there just isn't all that much to be had. One major disagreement I have with your post is that you say that we can't be a true Horde army, but I find that is not the case - at 2500 points, I can quite easily field a Horde of Gors, a Horde of Bestigors, and a Horde of Ungors (or a bus, depending on the matchup), while still bringing loads of chaff and a full-fledged magic engine. If that's not a Horde army... well, what is? If your Beastmen opponents haven't been capable of fielding a quality Horde army, they're not trying hard enough.

Ghorros Warhoof's MSU tactica is a rather valiant effort at shoving the square peg into the round hole, but it fails to address multiple critical issues that style of army would have. First, fighty characters negate many of the advantages that combo-charging units that small can have (oh, you got a unit of Centigors in my Horde's flank? That's nice - my Beastlord makes way and murders half of them before they swing). Second, more efficient MSU/MMU armies will DESTROY you - my WoC MMU list (which straight-up struggles against Herdstone + Hordes Beastmen) would be licking its chops to face that squishy Centigor list, and for good reason. Last but not least, even if you do get where you want to go, you have VERY little room for error against return attacks - don't know if you noticed, but most Beastmen aren't into that whole "wearing armor" fad. And let's just skip shooting, because I don't think I have to discuss what would happen to Centigors if they ran into an Empire army with 2 squads of Outriders and a Volley Gun, do I?

One of the big reasons why we don't do this particularly well is that small-sized Beastmen units aren't very independent - we depend on a mix of numbers and muscle to do our damage (we out-number more elite troops, we have better stats than cheap troops), as well as steady Leadership (which just isn't there if you don't have characters in them). That means that you'll be plunking down a lot of points in support characters for your units, or simply accepting the fact that some of the time they won't get the job done. Neither of these alternatives is appealing, because the former takes away precious points you can be using to fuel the buff/debuff engine (as a Lizardmen player, I'm sure you know how effective that is), and the latter means that you're going to lose games because your units simply cannot do what is asked of them.

Last but not least, and I hope I don't come off as rude, but that proposed list is awful. Shield Gors are straight-up inferior to AHW Gors, Ungrol is only any good as an Ambusher (and if you're ambushing Ungors, prepare to cough up some points), and even then he isn't great (majorly squishy, not great at fighting, and he can't even be guaranteed to be at his WS6/S5), none of those units is anywhere near big enough to do what this army would require it to do (especially the Bestigors - 10? Seriously?), the Ghorgon is the only big target right now (so he will come down with a serious case of cannon-to-face), and you have no magic whatsoever (so a magic-heavy list is going to destroy you). How, exactly, does this list propose to beat anyone who fights back? S3/T3 guys in the backfield don't scare many people.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on May 8 2012, 09:51 PM


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"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

Rothgar's Ramhorns (7/30/2011-present): W 47 / D 4 / L 45 ; Battle Reports; Army Diary

Check out my Armybook Rewriting Project! Or my Beastmen Handbook!

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