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 Beastmen Bashing, Take a swig of this...
daftgor
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 03:58 PM


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QUOTE (rothgar13 @ Apr 26 2012, 02:55 PM)
QUOTE (snowblizz @ Apr 26 2012, 10:40 AM)
QUOTE (Bossman @ Apr 26 2012, 08:39 AM)
storm of Magic is tons of fun.

No.


who made you Grand Arbiter of Fun?

This would make a fantastic custom title.


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Burb
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:50 PM


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QUOTE (snowblizz @ Apr 26 2012, 10:40 AM)
Re-reading this to refer it back to a Dwarf player it struck me. How exactly are these trivial changes? What is not a trivial change in your view? When they cancel the armybook, burn all models and kill all people who ever played the army?


Because Dwarves used to have many of the things that some players are complaining that the rumours are saying they'll be getting or could be getting. Dwarves may not have a magic phase right now, but in past editions they did. Even back in many (though not all of them) past editions of the games back when Dwarves had a magic phase in some fashion they also still largely had more anti magic than anyone else.

It is apparant that if edition to edition changes (on many occasions these changes are many for numerous armies) are causing some players such a over the top reactions to it then they haven't been playing long enough to know that the armies they hold so protectively are a massive retcon in their own right, a retcon that most deffinately had players in the past complaining in much the same way.

Remember 5 edition "Herohammer" ? when your special characters and other characters did EVERYTHING since everything else was crap and that the only thing the non-character parts of your army did was decoy or roadblock. Did you get to hear all the complaints from virtually every player back then as now characters where toned down substantially, large amounts of all armies lores got re-wrote and now everyone had to buy more stuff for their armies (more so than ever before at that point) and worst of all now you had to move your army around!!!

It's a bigger change to give them something new, than to give them something they've had before that since that point was removed because it didn't fit with a later retcon. I suppose it is sort of ironic to have these types of debates on a Beastmen forum considering how big of a retcon and how many changes in most Beastmen areas there have been since their last book.

This post has been edited by Burb on Apr 26 2012, 10:50 PM
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The Charioteer
  Posted: Apr 26 2012, 11:48 PM


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QUOTE (Charistoph @ Apr 26 2012, 03:38 PM)
QUOTE (The Charioteer @ Apr 26 2012, 03:38 AM)
My dwarf loving friend has Elves and skaven to fall back on but i know he would not buy a dwarf book with magic in it and rightly so.

So, he has never bought a Dwarf book? They have magic all over the place, and the safest kind, too. It's called Rune magic, and while it may not be over the top Channeling of the Winds of Magic, it is still harnessing magic to do a job. Just because they seal it into an item, or hammer it out in the field, doesn't make it any less magic.

No he has the last 3 but also has skaven dating back to early 7th and high elves dating back to mid-late 7th and empire back in late 5th and dwarfs from the same era.
I would not blame him if they do give them magic.
Like I said if they make all the armies play the same whats the point of having different armies?
If they take the 1 thing that made dwarfs dwarfs away then they might as well be warriors of chaos or the empire.


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Charistoph
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 04:08 AM


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QUOTE (The Charioteer @ Apr 26 2012, 04:48 PM)
No he has the last 3 but also has skaven dating back to early 7th and high elves dating back to mid-late 7th and empire back in late 5th and dwarfs from the same era.
I would not blame him if they do give them magic.
Like I said if they make all the armies play the same whats the point of having different armies?
If they take the 1 thing that made dwarfs dwarfs away then they might as well be warriors of chaos or the empire.

Then you missed my point. My point is that they DO have magic, even if it's not used in the Magic Phase. And as others have pointed out, they even had wizards before.

Now, I don't think they should have Wizards, per se, but to think that Dwarf Runesmiths could not/would not create items that held bound magic to be released is a little short sighted, and well in keeping with how Dwarfs operate.

But that's a different subject all together. We're supposed to be talking about Beastmen, not Stunties!
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snowblizz
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 05:52 AM


Grand Arbiter of Fun, Ph.D.


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N/m.
I've slept 3-4 hrs, and should not be replying. I would point out that disagreeing with posts is not "bashing people" nor is it hyperbole.

I am however going to keep the title because I love it and feel I've earned it.

I'm absolutely not overstating anything when I say that the guy I know will absolutely quit at the inclusion of Dwarf wizards. SoM was already cutting it close. The "modern" Warhammer isn't the same game as the one that had Dwarf wizards despite having the same name stamped on it. People do the same thing with 40k referring to background that hasn't been relevant or coherent for two decades. The 1st and 2nd editions was all over the place. I don't think WH really became coherent until around 3rd edition.
When was it the Dwarf wizards went out of style? By 4th for sure there was no such thing,

This post has been edited by snowblizz on Apr 27 2012, 10:00 AM


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GorNZ
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 09:08 AM


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All hail the Grand Arbiter of Fun!
thumbsup.gif

@Dransfield
I agree with you, I love the challenge of making Beastmen work. I love the turn when I put my Gors into charge range.
I think that a OP army would bore me, maybe not in a tournament environment, but for every day games I'd rather go one that challenges me. (even though I'd still faithfully take Beastmen to a tourney, haven't had the chance yet)
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Bossman
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 11:27 AM


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Bah, if anybody quits warhamer because of something added they don't have to use. that's a loss to them. Anybody who thinks beastmen or brets arn't a fine army when compared to any of the 8th books, is crazy. SoM shouldn't make anybody leave as you can simply say "Let's not play that". Also we just can't pick and choose what fluff counts and what doesn't. Lastly if dwarf players don't want anything new added, and nothing taken away, why do they even want a updated book?
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Charistoph
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 02:23 PM


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QUOTE (Bossman @ Apr 27 2012, 04:27 AM)
Lastly if dwarf players don't want anything new added, and nothing taken away, why do they even want a updated book?

huh.gif That's a very good point. coffee.gif
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decker_cky
Posted: Apr 27 2012, 04:43 PM


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QUOTE (snowblizz @ Apr 26 2012, 10:52 PM)
N/m.
I've slept 3-4 hrs, and should not be replying. I would point out that disagreeing with posts is not "bashing people" nor is it hyperbole.

I am however going to keep the title because I love it and feel I've earned it.

I'm absolutely not overstating anything when I say that the guy I know will absolutely quit at the inclusion of Dwarf wizards. SoM was already cutting it close. The "modern" Warhammer isn't the same game as the one that had Dwarf wizards despite having the same name stamped on it. People do the same thing with 40k referring to background that hasn't been relevant or coherent for two decades. The 1st and 2nd editions was all over the place. I don't think WH really became coherent until around 3rd edition.
When was it the Dwarf wizards went out of style? By 4th for sure there was no such thing,

Just curious....what if they had a magic system closer to what runesmiths have in storms of magic, but with subtle dwarf appropriate upgrades? Make a character +1S, make a unit stubborn, give a unit +1 armour, etc.. Nothing overt, but give dwarfs something to do then. Keep the army primarily defensive magically, but have a little 'offensive' magic.

I'm pretty sure that's a likely direction they'd go with the anvil of doom if nothing else, but I could see it being conceivable to do it with runesmiths too.


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snowblizz
Posted: Apr 28 2012, 01:44 PM


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QUOTE (decker_cky @ Apr 27 2012, 04:43 PM)
Just curious....what if they had a magic system closer to what runesmiths have in storms of magic, but with subtle dwarf appropriate upgrades? Make a character +1S, make a unit stubborn, give a unit +1 armour, etc.. Nothing overt, but give dwarfs something to do then. Keep the army primarily defensive magically, but have a little 'offensive' magic.

I'm pretty sure that's a likely direction they'd go with the anvil of doom if nothing else, but I could see it being conceivable to do it with runesmiths too.

My friend would quit. You should'ave seen his face when I referred to this discussion.
Like I said SoM almost did it, but we quietly ignored that particular pile of compost hitting a fan.

While we ignore SoM because it's stupid, we can't ignore a Dwarf armybook.

The reason people want an update would be to adjust the points values and rules to be in-line with 8th, not to fill it with random whacky stuff which destroys what gives the army character.

In fact when I talked to him today he was mentioning the Empire points going up and was afraid Dwarfs would follow.

Instead of having Runesmiths casts spells, which that would be, let them take runic banners that have similar effect. Then it would be "passive" runic magic and not channelling the winds of magic.
The result of Dwarfs using magic can be seen with Chaos Dwarfs. Stone statutes.


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Bossman
Posted: Apr 28 2012, 04:51 PM


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"The reason people want an update would be to adjust the points values and rules to be in-line with 8th, not to fill it with random whacky stuff which destroys what gives the army character.

In fact when I talked to him today he was mentioning the Empire points going up and was afraid Dwarfs would follow."


So he wants the same book that has great magic defense, overly cheap artillery, and great weapons everywhere, but with magic banners everywhere and cheaper.....

This post has been edited by Bossman on Apr 28 2012, 04:51 PM
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Ragna627
Posted: Apr 28 2012, 08:53 PM


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1) I play dwarves as well and most of the people I know are dreading the new book.

2) The idea of dwarven wizards does bring shivers but if you quit over that than you may as well shave your beard anyway, you aint a dwarf.

3) Back to the main discussion for a sec, your brothers point is about as solid as a sand castle. Saying that any army leans on "Crutches" is ridiculous. No one's going to make a list to play up their weaknesses and a mino-bus is no less a valid unit then LM's TG bunker or Wood Elves Achers.

This post has been edited by Ragna627 on Apr 28 2012, 08:53 PM
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Charistoph
Posted: Apr 29 2012, 11:26 PM


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QUOTE (snowblizz @ Apr 28 2012, 06:44 AM)
Instead of having Runesmiths casts spells, which that would be, let them take runic banners that have similar effect. Then it would be "passive" runic magic and not channelling the winds of magic.

But again, Runesmiths and Runelords channel the winds of magic every time they endeavor to create a Rune. It's what they do. It's not like the other magic users, true, but they still do it. That's why I don't get this paradigm at all.

But sorry for taking this off track.

As for the "crutches" bit, name an army that doesn't have a "crutch" of some kind or another, and you will fail. True, those crutches may have changed from 7th to 8th Edition, or from book to book, but they are there.
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snowblizz
Posted: Apr 30 2012, 12:10 PM


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QUOTE (Charistoph @ Apr 29 2012, 11:26 PM)
QUOTE (snowblizz @ Apr 28 2012, 06:44 AM)
Instead of having Runesmiths casts spells, which that would be, let them take runic banners that have similar effect. Then it would be "passive" runic magic and not channelling the winds of magic.

But again, Runesmiths and Runelords channel the winds of magic every time they endeavor to create a Rune. It's what they do. It's not like the other magic users, true, but they still do it. That's why I don't get this paradigm at all.

Not to the Dwarfs! And that's kinda the point. The Runesmith/lord does not himself channel magic, or they would turn to stone ala CDs, it is the form of the rune which binds magic. When the new armybook says Thorek turned to stone, fair enough, until then however...

Sure we could say they live in denial. And they do, insisting they don't use magic, when a lot of what they do clearly is infused with it. Double standard we could say. Doesn't make it less true for the Dwarfs themselves.

Khorne despises magic yet no one has problems with magic items that improve the ability of slaying, despite the very thing Khorne despises so infusing them. Similar issue. There's a difference between the indirect and direct use of magic. Apparently.

Neither Khorne followers or Dwarfs are magic user per se. Maybe we could call them magic advantage takers. They can take advantage of magic without directly using it.


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kris_kapsner
Posted: Apr 30 2012, 02:46 PM


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Why couldn't the new dwarf rune smiths carry an anvil around with them...kind of like that stone that they can stand on or riding the shield. Then, every time they "cast a spell" it's them hammering the anvil. They could cast spells from their own new lore that would probably mainly boost units around them, hex units wearing armor and cause damage through manipulation of the earth. Like the ogres, they could require at least one rune smith to take such a lore and then all others would be open to taking that lore or lore of metal.

What do the dwarf magic critics think of something like that?
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