whats the guess for next release

I don't believe this is true at all. Finecast moulds are cheap and have a very limited life-time, they get replaced all the time.

I think one of the tyranids just released had a finecast model already.

Finecast makes GW lots of money.

Plastic and metal don't.

You may be right because I am just guessing but money makes the world go round.

I don't believe this is true at all. Finecast moulds are cheap and have a very limited life-time, they get replaced all the time.

One of the more believable theories about this is that GW are generally waiting until the current moulds for casting in metal wear out before converting back catalogue miniatures to finecast.

So relatively well selling models are likely to be converted earlier, and if people hold off buying a particular model because they'd prefer it to be in finecast (perhaps it's notoriously hard to assemble in metal?) then that could actually delay the conversion.

I'd have thought treekin and eternal guard were almost certain to be made into plastic kits whenever GW finally update Wood Elves. The open questions in my mind are whether they would do wardancers in plastic and, given the recent vogue for left-field additions to each army, what weird and wonderful thing they would come up with for Wood Elves.

I'm certain that:

a) GW make a gross profit on each and every item that they sell.

b) Plastic overall makes a lot more money for GW than either finecast or metal, whether you measure that in total terms or per £ of revenue.

I base this opinion on:

a) The huge gross margin that GW make on their sales as a whole.

b) The continuing and accelerating conversion of their miniatures to plastic.

As an aside to b), now that GW have made a centrepiece, named character like Karl Franz as a plastic kit, then you can be completely certain that the future of GW is with the maximum proportion of plastic kits as they can possibly manage, and as few in metal or resin as possible. If they're not going to do a large character kit like Karl Franz on Deathclaw in finecast then it's completely obvious that it's merely a stopgap, otherwise what is it for?

This post has been edited by Misfratz on Apr 24 2012, 08:24 AM

There's one flaw in that argument. It's not a Karl Franz plastic kit. It's an Empire Lord on Griffon kit with 3 options, Karl Franz, generic General and Amber lord. Making all 3 griffon options in the list from the same versatile kit.

Metal is disappearing completely, that's a given. I don't think there's any changing that, bar a massive and irreversible cut in metal raw prices. Maybe if all cows suddenly milked tin alloys instead of milk, but probably not otherwise.

Finecast is meant for and will continue to be meant for limited runs of stuff a plastic mould would not recoup costs quickly enough for. Furthermore I doubt Finecast is suitable for a model like the new griffon. Making large resinkits is very labour intensive so even if the cost of material per unit would be lower plastic allows assembly line type manufacture.
Finecast in theory is perfect for low volume high quality models.

I'm certain that:

a) GW make a gross profit on each and every item that they sell.

Plastic overall makes a lot more money for GW than either finecast or metal, whether you measure that in total terms or per £ of revenue.

I base this opinion on:

a) The huge gross margin that GW make on their sales as a whole.

The continuing and accelerating conversion of their miniatures to plastic.

As an aside to , now that GW have made a centrepiece, named character like Karl Franz as a plastic kit, then you can be completely certain that the future of GW is with the maximum proportion of plastic kits as they can possibly manage, and as few in metal or resin as possible. If they're not going to do a large character kit like Karl Franz on Deathclaw in finecast then it's completely obvious that it's merely a stopgap, otherwise what is it for?

Here's the facts

On plastic+metal minis combined they make an average of 4% profit per kit sold.
4%. Its no wonder the kits are so expensive!

The material used to make finecast models (resin)cost at most 15% of the material used to make metal minis(pewter). This, combined with the price hike for finecast models mean that the turnover for finecast is probably between 25-50% per kit sold. A much nicer sum for their investors I'm sure you will agree.

What they need to do is jump on the cheap asian labor horse and drop the prices. I'm not talking about a huge price drop across the board, just enough to keep it sensible. Think about it, sell all the existing stock thats made in the usa and England at sale prices, 30% off. Then drop the price about 15% across the range for europe and usa and drop it 20%-25% for aus and NZ(because we pay so much more and a move to asia would drop shipping costs so much.

Faith would be restored, the long time fans would be happy and as much as they say "we do more businesses now than ever" they would do so much more!

Yes, that's fair enough. I expect that there will, for a long time, be extra models that GW can release that would be profitable in finecast but not in plastic, due to the expected lower volume. However, even there, the continuing decline in the cost of the moulds for plastic models will shift the volume level at which plastic is more profitable to lower and lower volumes.

On the suitability of resin for large kits, I confess that I am making the mistake of taking GW at their word, as a stated benefit of finecast was that it would enable them to do bigger and more dramatic kits than was possible in metal because of the lightness of the material. Such is GW's credibility that I would rather take your word for it!

You are confused by the difference between gross profit margin and net profit margin.

GW's net profit margin is, indeed, 4%. However, that includes costs such as the design studio, human resources, the store chain, etc, that are not attributable to the manufacture, distribution and sale of each kit. This is why gross profit margin is also used, as this is the profit margin on each extra kit sold, assuming that the other costs are fixed (which they generally are as a GW store costs the same to rent whether the shop sells 10 Karl Franz kits this weekend or 2).

GW's gross profit margin is huge - I can't be bothered to look it up right now, but you can find it in the annual reports. I am very confident that GW's gross profit margin is higher on plastic kits than on resin kits.

As to the comparison between metal and resin, it would be very surprising if GW were not making more profit from resin than metal (else an investor would wonder why make the change), but you ignore the likely higher labour costs of casting in resin compared to metal, so the difference in gross profit margin is likely much smaller than you state.

Finally, whether GW should move their production offshore so that they can drop prices is a different matter entirely. Personally, I prefer to pay a bit extra for models that are made by workers in the UK.

This post has been edited by Misfratz on Apr 24 2012, 12:10 PM

Finally, whether GW should move their production offshore so that they can drop prices is a different matter entirely. Personally, I prefer to pay a bit extra for models that are made by workers in the UK.

Your other points are all valid(though i will still maintain that the profit PER KIT is higher for resin than anything else) but this made me laugh so hard that I probably woke my neighbors up!

A random dude in the UK who works crappy hours for crappy money to make model kits for people he will never care to meet uses as much "care" as a dude in the same scenario in asia.

Need further swaying, just look at the respective motor industries. You think Investors gave a crap about that extra care when factory after factory was closed down. and now the asian car market is booming and they are setting standards for safety and quality. While range rover still haven't figured out how to get the lights to work properly.

Also its not an extra "bit". Its an effing gigaton. The off shore saving would absolutely slash the prices, so much that it would EASILY cover the extra shipping cost to take the stuff back to europe and the USA and then some.

considering that azhag the slaughterer costs over $150 in us dollars over here(93 pounds!) I would take that imaginary quality dip anyway even if it did exist.

@ the charioteer, yes but for decades Asian car manufacturers have been basing new factories in the uk as the made in Britain stamp sells well with their home markets. I think you will find most people prefer to pay what they do and know its not made in some unscrupulously run factory.

Plus the complaining about gw prices is tired now, surely? Its not that expensive, warmachine models and Fow models are simmilar prices, and much worse quality. Gw have always been 'expensive' I'm sure when you could buy a whole army for fifty quid people moaned, but if the prices were that unreasonable people wouldn't buy it. *sits and waits for gw to go bust from lack of sales*

Charioteer, I think you'll have to wait for that asian miracle, since GW has recently pulled out of China, and moved manufacture to Europe. The price in the Southern Hemisphere will still be crazy, but then it would if the goods were made in asia as well, the problem isn't the production cost, but that GW think they can get away with selling stuff at a higher price overseas, and because they use a currency converter that's three years behind.

@hornywingythingy: I just bought 44 Thirty Years War models from Warlord Games for about £17. Sure, it was in a sale from Maelstrom, but still, I think I would get an army for £50 at those prices. Comparing GW to the other "brand" names only takes you so far, when there are cheaper "small brand" goods available.

GW had books printed in China, and had binding problems so brought it back to Europe. You can save costs by moving production to China in some cases, but:
1.) Not a good idea for IP heavy areas (often companies need to get each part of their product produced separately, then have them assembled back in Europe or North America).
2.) You don't save near as much if you want to maintain quality. Look at the finecast issues with close supervision from GW. Do you really think that will be at the same level with further separated supervision?


Also, plastic has a huge fixed cost to produce the molds, but a miniscule per kit cost. Finecast has a low startup cost (same as metal), and less material cost than metal, but very obviously has quality assurance issues that eat into the margins.

Looking at the price increases at other manufacturers, metal minis at this point in time just aren't feasible. I've seen companies charging finecast or higher prices and barely breaking even (margin is high enough to cover fixed costs, but very little take-home profit).


TLDR: For high volume items, plastic has always been, and will continue to make more profit per unit sold. For low volume items, GW makes more money from finecast.

NEVER say that to an australian. you have no idea what its like. where do you live? the US, GB Europe?
All prices in Australian dollars.
Battalion in England, $94
Battalion is Sweden $99
Battalion in the USA $87
Battalion in Australia $150

And some things are even worse. Don't talk to me about "its not that expensive".

@Charioteer, I whole heartedly agree and just to 1-up you a battalion in New Zealand is $180. Definitley an insentive when bulking out the core of the army as 2 boxes of Gor cost $96. This leads to me trolling Ebay consistently, from what i can find, i can get a new battalion for about $120...so why would i buy it from GW? (despite slight risk from buying overseas online)
I think we have reason to whine about the price until the cows come home. BUT there are alternative places to buy and alternative models to supplement us...

...regarding the actual topic, i would like to see a new Wood Elves edition.
Mainly because they are the enemy i play against the most and i like them as a whole along with their fluff

This post has been edited by GorNZ on Apr 24 2012, 10:24 PM

Well as I pointed out they are Special, but made Core only with a Highborn as the general. The point of a combo charge is to avoid getting their face kicked in. I wouldn't take the Rhymer's Harp on Eternal Guard, the model carrying it would die. Not sure why you would suggest that. A character model on the flank with a good ward will do that.

Wild Riders don't suck (saying that just comes across as Trolling), with the proliferation of smaller support units having 15 attacks at Init 5 can be pretty handy.

Plastic makes GW huge money. After the initial stamps are made the raw materials in pumping out plastic kits is all shipping and retail shelf cost.

Wait, what? In what world is a 26ppm guy who only gets one attack at S5 (remember that the Fury of Kurnous only applies on turns you did NOT charge) with a T3/5+/5++ vs. non-magical defense line worth it? They're arguably worse than Centigors, and I KNOW those are overpriced. At least Centis have T4, 2 S5 attacks, and Primal Fury. I'd rather have 2 Tree Kin that 5 Wild Riders, no question about it.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on Apr 25 2012, 06:05 AM