InvisionFree - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.

Learn More · Register for Free
Welcome to Herdstone. We hope you enjoy your visit.
You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Name:   Password:


Pages: (2) [1] 2  ( Go to first unread post )

 Trying out the Shadow+Herdstone combination, Growing to 2k
JesterGor
Posted: Feb 25 2012, 02:22 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



So I am trying to join the herd of those using apparently the most potent things in our book. The list is in this thread marked as Variant A. The first battle is against the Empire. some greatsword units, a horde of halberdiers, two flagellant units, two mortars and two knight units. And outriders. They also have mounted BSB, general, lector and a hero on something winged, probably pegasus.

The battle was lost in the movement phase. I was able to stick all three casters between arcane ruins and the herdstone, but magic was so uneventful as it didn't even existed. Furthermore, because of this my two main units could not support each other and were torn to pieces one by one. Allowing enemy to multicharge is bad, and I let it happen twice. Beastlord and gors were able to make some dent in enemy horde, destroy a unit of greatswords and a unit of flagellants, but that's all. Ungor raiders valiantly held the center-rear, putting two wounds on flying hero to be finished off by my GBS. This brings up a few questions:
  • How to play the chaff when enemy has created a full battle line across the table? My harpies had no chance to get to the mortars without being charged or shot by cavalry, and centigors would have been even less successful. As a result they soaked up some shooting, and that's it.
  • What is the solution for the lector with the speculum? Not that it is too annoying, but still...
  • ASL on bestigors makes them very brittle against S5 attacks, since only the beastlord can strike before them, and his efforts usually are "not enough". Miasma on WS is not particularly helpful, when enemy has plenty of attacks and hatred, what can be done to improve their chances of survival?
  • Beast banner looks good and groovy, but the ZOG wargor is still too frail against many things. This essentially means that my gors are paying 3 points per model to get +1 to their strength. Too much?
Top
JesterGor
Posted: Feb 25 2012, 08:20 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



The second battle, again using Variant A from this thread, against lizardmen. This was more evolved and involved, and just as bloody affair as before. My opponent had
  • Slann with 5 spells from the lore of life
  • Skink priest with 3 spells from the lore of heaven
  • 4 kroxigors
  • a few skinks to serve as a "bunker" for the priest
  • stegadon with bow
  • two units of 20+ saurus
  • 20+ temple guards
  • 9 chameleon skinks
Deployment was slightly complicated, and in the end the battlefield looked like this:
user posted image
Lizardmen at the top, left to right - temple guard, saurus, sinister statue skinks, kroxigors, stegadon, saurus. Below, left to right - gors, herdstone and shamans, chariots, ungors, centigors, harpies in between some buildings... and scouting chameleon skinks.

Early turns:
Having won the first turn, chameleon skinks obliterate harpies, forcing ungors into the wood in front of them. Centigors have to march through the wood, that appears to cause fear, losing one in process. All blocks advance, with lizardmen trying not to approach the statue. Turn 2 sees comet arriving at the herdstone, wiping all shamans in one go - so much for a magic phase...

The first contact:
user posted image
Gors start combat with temple guard, bestigors fail the charge, centigors charge saurus. Combat with temple guard goes OK, gors manage a draw while BSB kills their champion. Centigors drop a rank of sauruses and in the end a solo musician remains to be killed next round... But this stalls that flank.

On Lizardmen turn 4 sauruses charge bestigors while temple guard continue to fight gors. Beastlord outputs nice damage, but the BSB is killed... This spells the coming doom, both gors and bestigors lose combat by 1, have more ranks than enemy, test on generals leadership, and I roll 11 and 12. Bestigors are run down while gors barely manage to escape. Chariots sacrifice themselves to stall the enemy and drop one kroxigor.

The last stand:
user posted image
Barely able to rally, gors reform to take the incoming charges from saurus and temple guard. To my surprise, despite suffering heavy casualties against overwhelming enemy with ridiculous toughness, gors stay on roll 1+1 and about 10 of them survive to the end of the turn 6! They even managed to nick a couple temple guards and leave only 4 saurus from that block standing.

At the end, again the same questions - deployment, movement and protection. Does putting 2 shamans into a block of ungors protect them enough from shooting and comets, or just creates more possibilities for a panic? What is the best way to counter enemy scouts, when trying to set up a refused flank? In my experience bestigors have already lost to: men-at-arms, swordmasters, halberdiers and now - saurus, what am I doing wrong?

It is hopeless... but fun.
Top
arty
Posted: Feb 28 2012, 09:05 AM


Gor


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Member No.: 5,155
Joined: 5-December 11



Nice reports.

If you want to try something new, i had alot of fun with this list...


40 gors with bsb and beastlord (Horde formation)

40 ungors with doombull (deep formation, good save on bull)

Raiders

2 chariots
--------------------------------

30 bestigors

razorgor

harpies

lvl 2 shadow
dispell scroll

lvl 1 beast
ruby ring
---------------------------------

i had the same feeling as you with my bestigors. they dont do much.
But my Gors with beast banner and 1str/t from beast shaman...omg...


--------------------
Playing: Beastmen and High elves
Top
JesterGor
Posted: Feb 28 2012, 11:24 AM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



I honestly don't see a way to put both a beastlord and a doombull in a 2k list. Fully kitted beastlord comes around 250 pts, which leaves the doombull naked, and this is not a good thing, ungors or no ungors. smile.gif

The problem is, BSB is still an easy picking for most characters out there, and these two games taught me I really can't rely on magic. So, it's back to the drawing board, plotting the revenge! smile.gif
Top
arty
Posted: Feb 29 2012, 07:31 PM


Gor


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Member No.: 5,155
Joined: 5-December 11



Ah 2000 poitns. my list is 2400 sorry.

Yep same for me magic is a no go, thats why i always use lvl 1s and 2s.

Let me know if you find a good combo instead of bestigor herd smile.gif


--------------------
Playing: Beastmen and High elves
Top
JesterGor
Posted: Mar 2 2012, 09:14 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



The third battle using Variant A from this thread. The opposition was again lizardmen army of
  • a very special skink priest
  • a saurus hero on a carnosaur
  • a salamander with 4 handlers (that was so insignificant that I didn't bother to put on pictures)
  • 10 cold ones cavalry
  • 2 blocks of 20 sauruses
  • about 8 skinks
  • 10 chameleon skinks
  • 3 kroxigors
Beasts had the choice of position, but lizards got the first turn.
user posted image
This is a position after the deployment, top, left to right: skinks, cold ones, saurus, saurus, kroxigor, chameleon skinks. Bottom, left to right: herdstone and shamans, bestigors, gors, chariots behind ungor raiders, centigor and harpies.

The battle starts with plenty of revelations, like that this skink priest has the ability to cast everything... irresistibly! Nice to know that he also can pass miscasts to my shamans. So, by the time of the first contact all my shamans already have a wound each, and a comet is coming their way. Since I am able to wildform bestigors to shield them from salamander, the cold ones decided to charge gors instead.
user posted image
Combat was a draw, but I did the first big mistake - got my BSB into a challenge with enemy hero. She wounds the lizard and lives into another turn. In order to take what little chances I have I declare plenty of charges, and then the comet comes! Bestigors into the cold ones flank, centigors into the saurus flank, chariots to the face of another saurus block. Harpies and raiders annoy the kroxs and chameleons.
user posted image
I no longer have any magic left, my blocks suffer from comet hits that fortunately also take out the salamander, and after my BSB dies, giving carnosaur a wound, I make the second error - get my beastlord against the carnosaur! My lord dies, putting the second wound on the beast. So much for leadership... Gors break, carnosaur pursues, bestigors kill the last of the cold ones and reform to face saurus block, already somewhat weakened by centigors. Chariots do good, sending saurus fleeing but not catching them, only to charge again the freshly rallied enemies.
user posted image
Now, the last phase. Chariots have accumulated some wounds, but are ready to finish off saurus, bestigors try to get rid of the other sauruses before carnosaur returns after slaughtering hapless gors. Kroxigors and chameleons patiently wait for their turn while harpies line for a suicidal charge into skinks.
user posted image
This is the end of the turn 6... The crew of the last chariot on the last wound stare at chameleons, the last remaining saurus holds on the table edge, last 4 bestigors battle last 2 kroxigors (or was it only one left? I am not sure.). And the skinks with their priest are the true winners. 2nd level mage, knowing all 7 spells of heaven, irresistibly casting 3 or 4 of them each turn!

A few afterthoughts... Bestigors finally worked as they were supposed to. At least I think so, they killed quite a lot of stuff, unlike all previous times. Magic phase was non-existent, my brays were allowed grand total of 2 spells - pit of shades that scattered off any and everything and a single wildform, before being killed by comets and passed miscast. I've let both my general and BSB be killed for no gain - I still need to learn the rules of challenges. The chariots were exceptional, rolling 11 impact hits twice. And even centigors played their part, although not a big one.

Any comments?
Top
JesterGor
Posted: Mar 14 2012, 08:22 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



A very brief update to reflect on another beating with Variant A from this thread.. This time it was bretts, with two trebs, not too much knights and some 40 men-at-arms in horde formation. As usual, I have lost the game in the deployment phase and my infantry blocks had to march under fire with little hope for any kind of cooperation. Bestigors got into the worst possible matchup - irresistibly wildformed men-at-arms. They were ground down in two close combat phases, the beastlord and bestigor champion fleeing for their lives only to be killed by volley fire with close to 40 shots. Gors did not much better, failing to catch fleeing enemy and being combo-charged next turn. With only wargor leadership from the BSB they lost to men-at-arms severely and were overrun.

Herdstone company was working perfectly this time, providing 2 or 3 useful spells per turn and forcing enemy to mostly stay put. Almost all beastmen casualties were due to warmachines, archers or men-at-arms. To this injury was added a lot of insults - I can't understand how could we forget so many quite basic rules? We forgot to use the bane stone influence, allowed full frontage of 10 men-at-arms to attack just 5 wide bestigor unit with 40 attacks, made ward saves against pit of shades... I doubt this would have changed the outcome, but still.

Surprisingly, 5 centigors with a chariot were able to wreck much more damage than gors and bestigors. Centigors even survived the battle, still 5 strong and locked in combat with only half of men-at-arms. Another useful unit were harpies. Getting in the combat only at the third turn they killed both trebuchet crews, survived a flank charge from strength-debuffed lance of Knights of the Realm with just 2 casualties and fled the table afterwards.

Conclusion so far - the list does have potential, even in my paws, but as a general I am so far rather hopeless...
Top
Flint13
Posted: Mar 16 2012, 05:29 PM


Ungor


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Member No.: 5,255
Joined: 31-January 12



Don't worry too much about it. It can definately be frustrating in the beginning, but its all part of the learning process. If it makes you feel any better, back when I used to play lizardmen, I let a new WoC player pit of shades my temple guard block with Irresistable Force without remembering to scatter or suffer from miscast... blink.gif


--------------------
Cardio is rule #1. I've never had trouble outrunning a zombie, but I want to make sure I can outdistance a pissed off gor.
Top
JesterGor
Posted: May 9 2012, 10:25 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



And this is probably the last my attempt with this list version A. The only change I did was swapping lores - my lvl4 took beast while both lvl1s took shadow.

My opponent was Brettony army "geared against dwarfs":
  • Paladin on foot as general/BSB
  • Mounted damsel
  • Prophetess on foot
  • 20 men-at-arms with halberds
  • 9 knights of the realm
  • 9 grail knights
  • 9 knights I am not sure about, probably another knigths of the realm regiment
  • 5 pegasus knights
  • 20+ archers
  • 10 skirmishing archers
There was also a single trebuchet, but since it did nothing except rolling misfires and finally removing itself at the end of the game I simply omit it. Terrain was pretty simple and caused no ill effects for any of us. Beasts got the choice of the table side and went first. Beastmen, apart from 2 miasmas had wildform, flock, curse and savage beast. The position before the first turn is
user posted image
Bretts, at the top of the image, were (left to right): pegasus knights, unknown knights, bowmen, knights of the realm, men-at-arms with characters behind them, grail knights and skirmishing bowmen. Beastmen, at the bottom (left to right): tuskgor chariots, herdstone with shamans, gors, bestigors with stubborn centigor behind them, ungor raiders with harpies behind them.

Turn 1 Beastmen
Everything moves forward full speed except shamans. Harpies occupy the houses on the far right. Magic uneventful with miasma on bowmen and wildform on gors to discourage a charge on them.

Turn 1 Bretts
Skirmishers charge harpies, win the combat and force remaining two to flee through ungors, panicking them. Pegasus knights charge chariots and also win the combat, forcing one chariot to flee. Grail knights fail charge against bestigors but knights of the realm are more successful, however the beastlord kills just enough of them to make the combat a draw.

Turn 2 Beastmen
Harpies rally, ungors continue to stumble in their flight. Magic helps one chariot to stay in combat while the other flee from the table. Harpies seek cover behind blocks. Gors join the fight and with bestigor and beastlord win combat against knights of the realm and force them to flee. Beastmen are reforming to deep formation. Centigor manoeuvre to shield shamans from arrows and provide a flank safety later on.

Turn 2 Bretts
Unknown knights flank charge gors, skirmishing bowmen move into the houses and shoot one fleeing ungor. Knights of the realm are regrown. Grail knights and men-at-arms charge bestigors. Combat goes in the bestigors favour, with leadership and re-rolls just enough for the gors to stay put. State of things at the end of the second turn
user posted image

Turn 3 Beastmen
Fighting T7 knights is hard, but a flank charge by wildformed centigors helps a lot. Knights break, flee and are caught. Ungors continue their run, chariot fights on, putting another wound on pegasus knight. It seems things are starting to turn the beastmen way.

Turn 3 Bretts
Bowmen try to wither centigors, men-at-arms rally, remaining lance is slightly regrown. Chariot is wounded. Nothing too exciting.

Turn 4 Beastmen
What's wrong with these ungors? They are still fleeing. Centigors reform to face archers, as I have nowhere to hide them. Gors also turn their way. Bestigors charge men-at-arms who promptly flee off the table. Great bray decides it is time to change something and charges pegasus knights into the flank. FEAR! WS1 knights tremble and flee, chariot pursues and wins the dice roll with 11 to 10. Caught!

Turn 4 Bretts
From now on it is only about the damage control. Character try to prevent charges, knights are regrown. Position at the end of the fourth turn
user posted image

End game. Nothing overly exciting, as archers finally wipe out centigors with shooting and combat. Skirmishing bowmen are slaughtered by the beastlord, mounted damsel flee off board from harpies. Paladin is killed by gor herd. Ungors rally about 2 inches from the board edge. After the last turn brettonians had only archers and lone damsel standing - a significant wictory for beastmen in my opinion.

Some afterthoughts. Herdstone spam worked nicely this game, allowing me to routinely debuff two enemy units per turn. Two miscasts were insignificant, only effect was GBS forgetting wildform after buffing centigors for their dramatic countercharge. Primal fury and other leadership tests were reliable only within the beastlord and BSB range. The fact that my opponent rolled rather abysmally on armour and ward saves also made a significant impact on the game.

Thoughts, comments? And a question from me - if a lance (3x3 knights) charges into the flank of deep unit of infantry (4 ranks or more), do they break the steadfast or not?
Top
meowsor
Posted: May 15 2012, 09:11 PM


Foe Render


Group: Members
Posts: 77
Member No.: 3,795
Joined: 14-December 09



Great series of battle reports, I appreciate your analyses of what worked/didn't in the lists.

Not sure about whether lance formation removes rank bonuses as per other things. Nothing in the flank will ever negate Steadfast, though. People often confuse that Disruption rule that way.
Top
rothgar13
Posted: May 15 2012, 09:16 PM


Beastly Beastlord


Group: Member
Posts: 2,877
Member No.: 4,917
Joined: 2-July 11



As meowsor noted, the only thing that stops Steadfast is actually being out-ranked. With regards to Knights in Lance formation, the Bretonnia FAQ states that they need 3 guys for a rank instead of 5, so you would disrupt ranks (no rank bonus to CR).


--------------------
"The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

Rothgar's Ramhorns (7/30/2011-present): W 47 / D 4 / L 45 ; Battle Reports; Army Diary

Check out my Armybook Rewriting Project! Or my Beastmen Handbook!

My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.

Herdstone Awards: Best New Member (2011)
Top
JesterGor
Posted: May 16 2012, 09:18 AM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



QUOTE (rothgar13 @ May 15 2012, 09:16 PM)
With regards to Knights in Lance formation, the Bretonnia FAQ states that they need 3 guys for a rank instead of 5, so you would disrupt ranks (no rank bonus to CR).

Thank You! Having that FAQ would have saved us from debate. The game was fun, and such small things "break the concentration" worse than any miscast. sad.gif
Top
Shadespyre
Posted: May 16 2012, 09:01 PM


Doombull


Group: Member
Posts: 1,614
Member No.: 4,547
Joined: 4-December 10



I think you are probably learning a lot from these games already. You are fighting against some unpleasant foes, particularly Lizardmen which I have a terrible time against.

On that note, I suggest you read the Lizardman book yourself. Your description of the "very special skink shaman" is either exaggerated for dramatic effect or indicates that your opponent, errrm, doesn't understand his army book (I dislike using the term "cheating"...). The character is Tetto'eko. He can _usually_ have _one_ magic phase where he gets irresistible force on _any double_ that is _also_ a successful casting roll. And as a special character his equipment is fixed so he cannot take the "cupped hands of the old ones" item which allows you to pass off miscasts on the enemy.

Back to your army and tactics. You have found that 6 ungors or 5 harpies or 5 centigors aren't as good as you'd hoped. Yes. all 3 of those are on a suicide mission against 10 chameleons who can stand and shoot. I would drop the Centis (they aren't useless, but I think these 5 aren't meeting your needs) and take more ungors and harpies. Try doubling up to units of 10. Or try taking 2 units of Ungors so you can Ambush with one. Or both. They are cheap as chips after all. And have you tried Harpies with Scout? But the shoe on the other foot for a change.

Bestigors are reliable for two things:

a - they die in droves
b - they kill a lot of the enemy

you should expect them to definitely win ONE combat round, after that anything is a bonus. So you need to break the enemy in that round.

If you are losing characters in challenges, don't take the challenges. Let champions do it. Equip your characters to dish out the pain to the enemy rank and file instead. I'm not a fan of the Beast BSB for the reason that he is a fragile asset. Get a vanilla BSB and stand him behind the battle line instead? Or just drop the magic banner so you can take 50 points of defensive magic to keep him alive.

Anyway, it sounds like you are having fun, so keep at it! thumbsup.gif


--------------------
Top
JesterGor
Posted: May 17 2012, 10:16 PM


Wargor


Group: Member
Posts: 343
Member No.: 4,775
Joined: 9-April 11



QUOTE (Shadespyre @ May 16 2012, 09:01 PM)
On that note, I suggest you read the Lizardman book yourself. Your description of the "very special skink shaman" is either exaggerated for dramatic effect or indicates that your opponent, errrm, doesn't understand his army book (I dislike using the term "cheating"...). The character is Tetto'eko. He can _usually_ have _one_ magic phase where he gets irresistible force on _any double_ that is _also_ a successful casting roll. And as a special character his equipment is fixed so he cannot take the "cupped hands of the old ones" item which allows you to pass off miscasts on the enemy.

I have used the words "very special skink shaman" because that's how he was presented to me. Special character, loremaster, 2nd level mage, knows all spells from Lore of Heavens. The magic phase looked like this - my opponent rolled the dice (I don't remember whether it was a D6 or 2D6) and then proclaimed that all is well and all his successful casts are irresistible. This went on for all 6 turns. When he rolled miscast on a second turn he said that he uses the cupped hands to pass it to my GBS, the result wounding all three shamans.

QUOTE (Shadespyre @ May 16 2012, 09:01 PM)
I would drop the Centis (they aren't useless, but I think these 5 aren't meeting your needs) and take more ungors and harpies.

But I *love* them drunks! (Sad face goes here)... when they are sober. However, You are right. I've already tried units of 10 raiders, and will rewrite this list to try and accommodate them. Scouting harpies are good, but even less predictable for me. They have scattered brettonian archers, killed warmachine crews and blocked quite a few enemies in about half of the battles I've brought them to. In the other half they have died horrible way or started a panic way across the army...

QUOTE (Shadespyre @ May 16 2012, 09:01 PM)
Bestigors are reliable for two things... you should expect them to definitely win ONE combat round, after that anything is a bonus. So you need to break the enemy in that round.

This is the conclusion I am slowly getting to. I am trying to chose a favourable match for them, picking cavalry or lesser infantry, but so far they've almost never killed more than the beastlord alone. It's almost like they work as a solid bunker providing ranks and +1Ld, but nothing more. Maybe relegate them to the "beastlord delivery vehicle"?

Thank You for Your insight! A revised version of the herdstone list should be tested sometime during the summer...
Top
Shadespyre
Posted: May 17 2012, 11:57 PM


Doombull


Group: Member
Posts: 1,614
Member No.: 4,547
Joined: 4-December 10



Re: the shaman... he can use the "no miscast" ability in ONE TURN of his choice. He rolls 2d6, on a 3+ it works, on a 2 you gain the benefits in your next magic phase instead! And he can't take the magic item listed (which he used correctly) on that character because special characters must be used as listed in the rules. I am sure this is an innocent mistake on his part! wink.gif

Never be afraid to stop and read the rules - yes it breaks the flow of the game, but esp if you are learning it's nice to get them "right" as early as possible. Army or character specific rules are often a bit strange and we find it's a great idea for _everyone_ to read them to agree how they work.

If you fancy striking back on the special character front, take a look at Slugtongue and his "Curse of the Famine Fiend" ability. My opponents hate that one! smile.gif

Re: the centigors.... I love 'em too! I have over 40 of them in my collection! But against the foes you seem to need them to face (missile skirmishers) they are incredibly vulnerable to "stand and shoot" and indeed any missile fire. If you can find a way to combination charge them into battle alongside a ranked unit, or to attack the correct targets, they are good. But they tend to suffer like bestis, only more so, as their low Initiative (unless sober) means they must survive attacks before dishing out the damage. I would sideline them for now...

Re: chaff units in general.... leadership tests are a problem if you let them run to far ahead of the BSB and general - try to think about the consequences of them Panicking when you move them, e.g. don't stand other low LD units next to them or in their flee path! Do have a go with Ambush - once you've hit a Trebuchet or a Wizard from behind with a small unit of ungors (or gors even) a few times, you will see your opponents deploying to counter that, which hands you a little initiative in the deployment stage. The psychological impact is often bigger than the game impact wink.gif

Re: the bestigors... they really should be killing things for you, with (usually) rerolls To Hit and S6 attacks. However, if your BL is doing lots of damage, how about running them just 5 wide and as deep as possible? This minimises enemy attacks and maximises the chance of you being Steadfast and them NOT being. Enemies to avoid...

anything with lots of attacks (frenzy, hordes, add hand weapons)
anything with higher WS
anything with high S

...will all increase the chances of you taking heavy casualties, while Ward saves or really good armour saves will "waste" a lot of your attacks. Finally, stubborn or unbreakable troops should be tackled instead with big units of cheaper Gors or ungors who are better at grinding out prolonged combats (because you get more for the same points.)

Re: magic.... I think you've already learned my rule, which is that you should NEVER base a strategy on ASSUMING that you can cast specific spells when you need to. I am baffled when people do this because in games I play magic is just never that predictable!

Finally, there is loads and loads and loads of advice all over the Herdstone - often conflicting, but all worth a try! Good luck!!


--------------------
Top
0 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
« Next Oldest | Battle Reports | Next Newest »
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you

Topic OptionsPages: (2) [1] 2 



Hosted for free by InvisionFree* (Terms of Use: Updated 2/10/2010) | Powered by Invision Power Board v1.3 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.
Page creation time: 0.1372 seconds | Archive
Warvault Webring