The discussion here will be incorporated into the enemy spotlight for manticores in the near future. I would rather not overload this thread with discussion about the characters that come on the manticores although any common sets of equipment or mean tricks are worth discussing.

What armies can take them? DE's and CD's only?

What is there primary purpose in each army? The same or different?

Is there something else in the armies that are better for the points?

What armies are most vulnerable to manticores?

What are its strengths and weaknesses?

What models are available for manticores? (I have an old plastic one that I put wings on a long time ago with Chaos could have them)

Well since CD's don't have an army list, and the odds of comming across them are so slim, we will talk about them in a DE army.

I gues we should start by talking about their typical strengths and weaknesses...

Their greatest strength imo is that they can be used in armies of less than 2K, how many other flying monsters will you meet in such small games!? (I had one in my 1k list)

They are fairly cheap too as compared to the rest of the terror causing flying monsters you might encounter...

What armies can take them?

only Dark elves can take these critters right now I believe!

What is there primary purpose?

They actually have a few....
Warmachine and mage hunting, which isnt really a major role, but can definitely be handle by it....
Psychological warfare, since it does cause terror and against low LD armies, like our precious beasts, can cause some mayhem!
Flanking, since it can fly it has excellent manuevarabilty and can put a serious hurting on many units sides and rears since it dishes out four WS5 strength 5 attacks!

What armies are most vulnerable to manticores?

Anything with Low Ld should be cautious, as well as low-mid toughness troops with 4+armor saves. Elven armies should be wary since it can hurt them BIG TIME!, as well as Beasts and Greenskins since they might run-off. I am unsure about suggesting them againt VC, unless you take out their wizards first, which it could definitely play a part in!

What are its strengths and weaknesses?

It is probably the ultimate-flanker since it can be included in almost any size game due to Beastmaster being able to ride it. Dark Elves can comfortably field two of them in a 2,000 point game with one being ridden by a Lord and the other a BM! If the opponent is a powergamer, they can possibly drop three of them in there!

As far as weaknesses, it has a moderate toughness of 5, but no armor save and cant be healed! Enough missile-fire will drop this lion! Remember to hug terrain if you are using it.

As far as point cost, it has a fair-price tag when compared to other monsters!

Compared to other monstrous mounts?

the only other real comparisons are Griffons, Hippogryphs, and Winged Nightmares. Manticores and Griffons are pretty much carbon-copies of each other, but the Manticore wins since they have more options to get them in the game! Hippogryphs have a lower WS, but a higher base movement, which almost never comes into play, so again the Manticore wins. IMO< the only real contender is the Winged Nightmare! Yes, you need a lord lovel character to mount it, it has a lower WS and only 3 attacks, BUT it can be healed and is S6 on the charge, and costs less!

Nasty Manticore Tricks!
I dub this the "Shadow Bomb". Dark Elves have a nasty magic weapon called the "web of shadows" and it inflicts 2d6 s3 hits to any model in base contact. The rider and manticore fly in and hit your general or valued character. It may not seem like a lot, but it adds up and can definitely ruin your day. Thankfully the item is "one use only".

Great analysis there...

So it's real weakness is that it has no save and only 5 toughness... I don't have my book with me, but how many wounds does it have?

He also doesn't have a 360 arc because he is a large target...correct?

Manticores have 4 starting wounds, and with the rider, they become Unit Strength 5. Yes, that wonderful numver for negating rank bonuses!!!

As far as the 360 degree arc, I never remember this correctly, but I believe it doesnt have it.

BTW, thanks Alfindeol, I can't believe I forgot that particular weakness of it being a large target, but that shouldnt matter if the controlling player hugs terrain. Unfortunately, beasts have pretty much no range weapons outside of throwing axes for Centigors, so this isnt something we can abuse!

One point that should be brought up however, is effective ways for (pure) Beast armies to remove this threat!

Possibilities are:
-Shaggoths, pricey in comparison, but have all the skills necessary! Especially if armed with a great weapon!

-Minotaurs, may have a slightly tough time hitting them, but arm them with great weapons and they will wound it with ease! Khorne and Slaanesh Minos would work best, ignoring the Terror tests.

-Dragon Ogres, they are just as strong as Manticores, have all the benefits of non marked Minos, an armor save, and higher movement.

Yeah I was thinking that both DO's and Minotaurs have the right stuff to knock one of these down quickly...

Hehe Tzeentch magic would work great too

i know its mainly minotaurs but could we be slightly more general cos i have real problems with high elfs on dragons.

on a beastial note though if you can bait him in front of a chariot or 2 they should do some real damage with impacts hits but could be pretty difficult to do

Chariots would work, but it would be quite hard to get him in a situation where one would hit him... possible though... Since it doesn't have a 360 arc, there are a few mean things we can do...

My biggest concern, is flying + Large target means he can do some mean things with charges...

well your characters are safe so long as you keep them in units and you dont really have a unit you especially need to stop him from charging. your beastherds should beat him if they have a character for ld and wounding.
your chariots might want to hide though. minotaurs and t5he like would hurt him badly if he charged so he wouldnt. its not like hes going to fly over our foot troops at our missile units.

I would think that minotaurs, shagoths, DO's would have a hard time catching the flying beast due to limited line of sites and shorter charge range.

I was thinking a bit of Slaanesh magic to pin it in place, or move it to where it can be charged, or frenzy it and draw it away (while it takes some damage no less)...

Along with the Slaanesh magic, you have the Slaanesh marks that make you immune to its terror.

Rune of the true beast can be of benefit too.

Just to chip in. A canny opponent will see the Minotaur threat and just use flight to get around it. Same with Dragon Ogres and even a Shaggoth, so don't bother. Really, all it takes is a beast herd.

He's crazy!

Or am I? Give your heroes great weapons at least, stick them in the herd. Sure, take those minotaurs and put them in the middle, flanked by the herds on each side. Angle the minotaurs a little away from the herd without the heroes, which tells your opponent "charge them, I charge you." Naturally, the manticore flies right into the other herd. It's a herd, he can't flank it. Rank Bonus 2, Outnumbering. Let the hero (or 2, or 3) wail on that unarmored beasty and the thing is toast. Yes, terror can ruin your day. But 7 is the most common number on 2d6, and there ware ways to better your odds against psychology.

That's what I'd do anyhow, particularly in games below 2K. Then the minotaurs are free to make chop suey out of the rest of his army.

All lone flyers have a 90o line of sight to the front (including daemon princes), page 106, it dosnt matter that it has under 5 wounds, its only units like furies that have 360o i think as they are skirmishs

arnt we overlooking the most important way to remove a manticore. if you know your opponent is gunna bring a manticore and you can alter your list just chuck rune of true beast on a wargor. against a beastmaster chaos armour should be plenty of protection and just great weapon the beastmaster and if the manticore sticks aroundafter his death deal with taht too.
all this for 106 points (alternatively chuck on 35 points and get an extra attack and immunity to its terror but im a khorne player anyway)

I think after seeing the lord in the dark elf army i faced you gona want abit more than that. Rune of the true beast, chaos runeshield, sword of might and heavy armour or maybe chaos armour. From what i saw without some form of protection you could be up against strength 6 killing blow attacks, and thats just from the rider, atleast the chaos runeshield knocks him down to strength 4 attacks.

Furies can be used to counter it as well, you may think what? but if they can kill the manticore you beast herds can just keep on going leaving the charcter behind you lines till you readyto deal with hi, again blood beast could be used to charge it and maybe even kill the manticore again (well blood beasts seem to have the best chance but you could try other types, even the basic one. Screamers could work as you could get more attacks into combat and have a better chance of killing the monster.

You could try a exalted daemon as your general ad use that to hunt erm down.

what about law of the beast,

You could combine the wolfs hunt, eagles cry with staff of dakkoth to move it into charge arc of something like mino, maybe even getting a flank or rear charge.

Yes, the Draich of Dark Power, a mighty weapon, however, it is preferably used on Nobles, Assassins and Highborns, Beastmasters more often than not take either a Lance and/or the Web of Shadows, that is the only armament they need to be dangerous, for once they use the web, your character is either dead or tough enough to withstand it and any other weapons the beastmaster might have brought otherwise.

I'd say that Centigors can make the life for Manticores VERY nasty, he hugs terrain, excelent for you, barrel through the wood with your Centigors, end up 2 inches from the edge and use your Throwing Axes on it, strength 5 shooting and Large Target never goes well together :evilgrin:

And, if the Manticore then charges you, just flee, you will have no problem fleeing through the wood, he will have problems charging through the wood on his ground movement.

Other options are a lone chariot parked behind your lines or a Beastherd with a Character sporting the Rune that is prepared to charge any big flying critter that lands nearby.

Just make sure to keep Beastherds to the flanks of any block units you may have, otherwise, expect a flankcharge from the beast.

theres always the option of going mortal on it and taking an exalted champion on steed of slaanesh/disc of tzeentch and just catching it i mean even a highborn would struggle against a well equipped exalted champion

naw, we dont want to go mortal ;p looking for beast solutions haha

However, who's to say we can't borrow some items from the mortals ;)

The Rending Sword would be nasty if you opt to attack the Beastmaster on top, once the Manticore can't break ranks, you've basically removed more than half of its usefullness, now its only a flying Spawn that isn't unbreakable

how about centigors to attack it. if they are near general terror shouldnt be TOO big a problem and they can surely do some damage on the charge. i mean against a beastmaster 4 str 5 attacks and 4 str 4 attacks must be enough to kill him.

Should be, also, it might even be enough to bring down the Manticore if you are lucky, leaving the poor beastmaster with a negative 4 CR aggainst him... and he's on foot

Might get lucky and get frenzied by drunken as well... fleshhounds maybe?

Good idea, if he gets inside their charge arc, he's toast, Flesh Hounds will put a nice dent in anything they charge... or rather, rip open a large, gaping hole in anything they charge :P

flesh hounds would work to kill it but unfortunately the terror causer isnt very likely to allow itself to get charged by them. with there frenzy he can just divert them away.


slanneshi magic? d6 str6 attacks would cause a dent on it and immobilising it would work very nicely. also if theres a highborn with a high powered weapon on him making himself attack the manticore could cause some serious damage.

Actually, he cannot attack his Mount, it says so explicitly in the spell

oh fair enough (i just gave away the fact im a khorne and dwarf player so have to admit to not having read the fine print of the spell lists)

but still immobilising or d6 str6 attacks would be very nice.

how about mounted daemonettes. very fast and a lot of attacks would be able to take out the beastmaster probably.

How about a nurgle wargor with the crown of everlasting conquest instead of rune of the true beast? no matter how many wounds the beast and character dishes out, you'll have 3 chances to make one 4+ save to survive. Stick him in a herd and you'll beat them by CR as long as you stay alive. tricky part is to get that specific herd into combat with the flying beastie

Although we may not have conventional shooting, we do have magic. As many have said, the lore of pain and pleasure would do wonders to his ability to evade charges. If you are using undivided shamen, however, a couple of hits from the lore of death spells would also suffice. You can pretty much bet on at least one wound from the basic S4 magic missle, and more depending on what other spells you have. While it may be time consuming and an almost futile process to try and kill him if you go light on magic, you have just made progress. You have hopefully scared the enemy into fearing for the health of his flyer, so he will now play cautiously, and instead of you worring about the threat of a flank charge, he worries about the threat of a hand of death. Sounds like a god turn of events to me.

This might aslo be it's greatest downfall it does soak up alot of pts, 1000 pts battle it to expensive, 1500 maybe, 2000 put him on a hero not a lord.

Last week i've seen a Herd get rid of a manticore with a hero on it.


LiGiris

Death magic works really well against characters on monsters

i took out imirk with a lvl 2 caster

too out imrik using only a lvl 2 caster? sounds like alot of luck to me and not something I'd rely on if I knew I was facing an opponent with a flying terror- causer...

the weakest bit of the manticore is the fact that its rider (in less than 2k) is a beastmaster. as such there armour save isnt gunna be great and they are only T3 with 2 wounds. so if you can get a large number of str3/4 attacks on it then it should die. even a beastherd could do it provided the general is nearby for the terror test.


justa thought but minotaurs are immune to terror andcan get 3 models fighting against a manticore 9 (12 if you play khorne) str 6 attacks should be more than capable of at least killing the beastmaster if not the manticore

The problem would be that the Manticore rider chooses his fights.

true. thats why i like herds on this as they are manouverable and fast enough that a couple of them should at least leave one unit in range. or he can choose to stay away and not be very effective

do these same tactics work for dragons? I will be facing a dark elf lord on a dragon. terror is going to really hurt.

i was thinking magic may be the only way to take the creature out. a crafty player will pick the combats he can win and avoid characters that might have the rune of the true beast.

nurgle magic has spells that : give no armor save, reduce toughness, target the rider only with a toughness test, or half movement/ force ground mvmt.

going magic heavy has its own drawbacks--shaman will get destroyed when the dragon/manticore charges.

um similar thing would work for dragons although dont expect the dragon to die as easily as the manticore does. my top plan so far has got to be big beastherd into it for combat resolution them shaggoth/minotaurs/dragon ogres into combat and direct attacks at the lord. he cant survive for too long under a barrage of high str attacks

Hey guys. First post here, but I've been on Druchii.net for many years (and the site formerly known as Ulthuan.com before that - that would be Asur.org nowadays). I've just started on a Beastmen army, but I have played elves (first High, then Dark) for about 7 years now, and I like to think that I know a bit about them.

Having said that, let's get on to the Manticore (henceforth known as 'the kitty'). The first thing one must realize when dealing with these beasts is that there is a very big difference between a kitty ridden by a Beastmaster and one ridden by a Highborn (lord). A High Sorceress can take one as well, but since nobody in their right mind would take it against an army with so many hard hitting skirmishers, I'll leave her out.
Despite having the same mount, these characters are played very differently. As I've just started on Beastmen, I sadly can't offer advice on how to take it out with our hooved troops. I can however explain the general weaknesses of each kitty option, gained from many a game using them. Hopefully this will be useful to you lot! :)

Here goes ...

Kitty & Beastmaster: quite a common sight, primarily because it's big and comes with claws and wings, yet doesen't take up a Lord choise (it takes 2 hero choises, so Slaangor1 is wrong - you can't bring 3 in a 2K army). The weak link in this setup is, of course, the Beastmaster (aka BM). With T3, just 2 wounds and rather limited access to mundane armour, he's pretty easy to kill, and when he dies, the unit strength (henceforth US) drops from 5 to 4, thus robbing it of its ability to properly flank enemy units (not that it's a big issue for Beastmen anyway with the herds, but it's worth mentioning none the less).
The BM may have a cheap magic item (such as the Blood Armour, which increases his save as he inflicts wounds), but none that radically change his capabilities or behavior (the Web of Shadows is rarely given to a kitty mounted BM, as it's not very useful to suicide bomb with a 250+ pts mini...). More importantly, because of a special rule, the kitty doesen't have to take a Monster Reaction Test when he dies, and thus it will continue to function flawlessly in spite of its shabby Ld5 (IIRC). You will still have a very nasty monster on your hands, but at least now it can't cancel out ranks or cause panic by co-charging with other units.
The moral of the story? Kill the Beastmaster ASAP and limit its uses to "just" killing, catching fleeing units and causing psychology checks. I recommend Furies, as they won't mind the terror and can direct a good deal of attacks at him because of the large base.

Kitty & Highborn: sticking a Highborn on top of the kitty makes for a truly terrifying (no bad pun intended) hammer unit. It's crazy fast, and unlike the above mentioned BM, the Highborn will put up one hell of a fight. Even with just a regular great weapon (quite a common choise of arms, actually), that's 4 WS7 S6 attacks and 4 WS5 S5 attacks, most likely delivered whereever the hell the Druchii player wants them delivered. If he has a magic weapon, you might be looking at S8 or S6 with killing blow. This guy can comfortably flank charge a unit of Minotaurs or Dragon Ogres and expect no retaliation.
In the case of the kitty + HB combo, the kitty suddenly becomes the weaker link as the Highborn is doubtlessly armed & armoured to the teeth, while the kitty is still "just" T5 with 4 wounds. Kill the kitten, by any means neccecary. If you get in close combat with the guy, attack the mount. With no armour save, it shouldn't be too hard to put a dent in it. If however you do decide to go for the Highborn instead, and you manage to kill him, the kitty is now facing a Monster Reaction test on Ld5.
Once he's on foot, he may be well equipped (and having the awe-inspiring Ld10 that most armies can only dream of) - if you're lucky he has a now useless lance -, but now he's restricted to his base M5, and you shouldn't have any trouble getting him in an uneven fight (which, for a single elven character, is pretty much any fight). Forcefully inserting a chariot between his kidneys is a good place to start.

General observations: it goes for both of these combos that the key is their manouverability. Handling a Hydra or a Shaggoth isn't that hard since they're relatively slow. Giving a monster like that a flying move makes it incredibly dangerous (who amongst you would pass up a flying Shaggoth? Anyone? Didn't think so), and it's exactly that mobility that you want to take away. Normally, this is done with heavy firepower. Deploy some Reaper Bolt Throwers, some crossbows, a few Hochland Long Rifles or a cannon, and the thing will stay in cover (at least until the ranged threats have been dealt with). Sadly, that is not an option with beasts. Yes, there's the throwing axes... but come on, you have to get into the kitty's terror zone to even get in range, and that assumes that they haven't been killed by Druchii missile fire already (perhaps there were some Shades in that wood they wanted to camp so bad ... repeater crossbows at close range is messy).
That leaves magic, and magic is lovely when it comes to threatening these flying menaces. Most magic missiles won't struggle too hard to wound a kitty or a BM, and spellcasters are generally a lot easier to move into LOS than artillery or missile troops. Other spells to limit mobility (guess what god I'm talking about now) are highly useful as well. Just make sure to keep that mage out of the kitty's LOS or he's likely toast (unless you're playing a T-zap Beastlord, in which case... well, I'd put my money on the Druchii on the terror causing monster anyway).
A note on the Highborn and Cold Ones - if there are Cold One Chariots in the army, most Druchii players will want to keep them within the Ld radius of the general (although IMO you'd have to be a bit of a tool to take a flying general with a bunch of cold one chariots anyway). If your enemy has these tendencies, use that to your advantage. With a little thinking (and with the tactical use of bait, ect), you should be able to predict where his general is going with reasonable accuracy. This generally only applies to unridden chariots, though. Cold One Knights and chariots ridden by Nobles have Ld9, which will keep them in line most of the time. Anyway, you can't reliably count on this, but keeping it in mind might come in handy. If nothing else, at least you'll know that his chariots are stupid on Ld8 and will statistically spend 1/3 of the time drooling and looking at the pretty flowers. Stupid lizards... *grumbles something about Malekith and a knife in the back*

Anyway, to sum up:

- When facing a Beastmaster, go for the rider. When facing a Highborn, go for the kitty. Either way, get that US down below 5!
- Use magic or expendable troops to limit the kitty's manouverability.
- A kitty has no armour save. Poisoned attacks are worth gold (although hard to come by), massed attacks are pretty good too (some will wound!).
- Don't forget that there's an army of Dark Elves in addition to the kitty rider(s ... if you're unlucky). It might just be a decoy.
- Don't waste point kitting out your slow characters or units to take it out. The kitty decides when and who to fight, not you.
- Plan ahead, and don't engage in drawn out combats that will present the kitty with a flank/rear.
- Use your mobility and try to put wounds on it whenever possible. A wounded manticore is a careful (even cowardly) manticore.
- BSB is a solid investment. If you can get the thing pinned down, you may be able to countercharge it.

In conclusion ... well, I am probably biased, but the Manticore presents a serious problem with no obvious solution (apart from bombarding it with spells as a substitute for missile troops). Being a Dark Elven general, I would not hesitate a second to deploy this monster against a Beastmen army, it seems like the perfect tool for the job. Low Ld, no shooting and relatively slow troops (highly flexible and mobile, yes ...but slow. Remember I'm used to Dark Riders ;)) makes Beastmen a lovely target. I wouldn't really be afraid of the big monsters, since they'll never catch my kitty anyway unless I make a serious mistake. The beastherds may prove troublesome, but the psychology tests will likely keep them out of my way a lot of the time.
What I'd really fear would be the sorcerers. Magic missiles and movement spells, combined with 360* LOS is a bitchin' combination. Both seriously threaten my desired superiority in the movement phase, and since I have 1 or 2 large monsters in my character selection, I am unlikely to have above average magic defense (when I'm running a Manti list I generally bring 4DD and 2 scrolls, as well as a bunch of mage hunters ... trouble is that the mage hunters are likely too soft to work against Beastmen).
Truth be told, I don't really have a conclusion. As I said in the beginning, I'm an experienced elven commander, yet completely inexperienced when it comes to playing with beastmen. I think the conclusion to this mammoth piece is in fact best left to the experienced beastlords amongst you here.

So there you have it, a completely biased and probably nigh-useless piece of propaganda, shamelessly praising the kitty as the best thing since sliced bread. Hope you enjoyed it!

And with those words, I pass the torch ...

Nice analysis Alith Anar! You're right about the number to field in a 2K game, I must've been having an off day! As afr as the Web OF Shadows though, I've seen it work a few times in the set-up I mentioned and seriously hampered my games from overkill on a unit champ, causing other units to flee and start one big chain reaction! Grrrr........... Wasn't pretty! And some unlucky lone characters got hit by it as well!