Hey all,

I was roaming some other forums a few days back, and I stumbled across something interesting, which was a community project to brainstorm ideas on how you would have re-written that book. I'm interested as to how folks here would tackle the issues that plague our book. I'd go with the following:

Special Rules:

As written in the book, with the following exceptions.

Beastmen Ambush: As per the Ambushers rule in the 8th edition BRB, with the following changes:

Units with this special rule are not forced to deploy using this special rule. Instead, up to half of the units in the army with the special rule (round down) can be deployed this way. Additionally, they can roll to see if they arrive on each of your turns (including Turn 1). Units with characters in them cannot deploy this way unless all characters in the unit also have the Beastmen Ambush special rule.

Bloodgreed: Units with this special rule start the game Frenzied, roll an additional dice (discarding the highest) when pursuing, and cannot overrun. Otherwise as written.

Disturbing Appearance: Enemy models suffer a -1 penalty to hit on ranged and close combat attacks against models with this special rule.

Drunken Bravado: Models with this special rule may re-roll any failed Primal Fury tests.

Heralds of Doom: Any friendly unit in base contact with the same enemy unit as one or more units with this special rule gains the Killing Blow special rule on any attacks directed against that enemy unit.

Incite: Models with this special rule (and any unit they join) automatically pass the first Primal Fury test in any close combat (they do not need to roll). This special rule has no effect on models that do not have the Primal Fury special rule.

Slythey Tongue: Units with this special rule have a shooting attack with the following profile:

Range - 18"
Strength - 5
Special Rules - Multiple Wounds (D3), Quick to Fire, Sniper

Swallow Whole: Whenever a model with this special rule slays an enemy model using its Killing Blow special rule, it regains one Wound lost earlier in the battle.

Thick Skinned: Models with this special rule grant +2 to the armor save of any model riding them, instead of the usual +1.

Tongue Lash: Units with this special rule have a shooting attack with the following profile:

Range - 12"
Strength - 4
Special Rules - Quick to Fire

Gifts and Magic Items:

Gifts of Chaos - We get the following list:
Crown of Horns - 80 points, Stubborn and 4+ Ward save.
Gnarled Hide - As written.
Gouge-Tusks - 10 points, otherwise as written.
Many-Limbed Fiend - 20 points, +1 Attack.
Rune of the True Beast - 25 points, 4+ Ward save against attacks from cavalry mounts, creatures drawing chariots, monsters, monstrous beasts, monstrous cavalry mounts, ridden monsters, or war beasts.
Shadow-Hide - 25 points, Characters Only, Scout special rule. May not be the army General.
Slug-Skin - 20 points, -1 to hit bearer in close combat.
Uncanny Senses - As written.

Magic Items - We keep a reduced list of items (par the course for 8e books):
Axes of Khorgor - 30 points, otherwise as written.
Blackened Plate - As written.
Chalice of Dark Rain - 25 points, otherwise as written.
Hagtree Fetish - As written.
Horn of the Great Hunt - Enchanted Item. 25 points, Wargor or Beastlord Only, One Use Only. A character with this item may choose to use it at the start of any of your Remaining Moves phases. If he does so, all rolls to determine if units with the Beastmen Ambush special rule appear on the table during this phase receive a +1 bonus.
Ramhorn Helm - As written.
Shard of the Herdstone - As written.
The Beast Banner - As written.
The Brass Cleaver - As written.

Lore of the Wild:

Lore Attribute: Savage Aggression. Whenever a spell from the Lore of the Wild is successfully cast, one unit within 24" of the caster may immediately move D6+1" toward the nearest enemy unit it can see. This movement follows all restrictions for normal movement.

0. Bestial Fury (Cast on 6+). This is an augment spell with a range of 12". One friendly unit within the spell's radius gains the Primal Fury special rule until the start of your next Magic Phase. If every member of the unit already has the Primal Fury special rule, the unit gains the Frenzy special rule until the start of your next Magic Phase instead. Models can benefit from this instance of Frenzy even if previously beaten in close combat. This spell may be augmented to affect all friendly units within 12". If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 12+.

1. Viletide (Cast on 6+). This is a magic missile spell with a range of 24". The target suffers 5D6 Strength 1 hits. This spell may be augmented to have a range of 48". If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 9+.

2. Devolve (Cast on 7+). This is a direct damage spell with a range of 24". Roll 2D6 and subtract the target unit's unmodified Leadership value from the total. The target unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the result, with no armor saves allowed. This spell may be augmented to roll 3D6 instead of 2D6. If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 10+.

3. Bray-Scream (Cast on 8+). This is an augment spell with a range of 12". One friendly character gains the Breath Weapon (Strength 3) special rule until the start of your next Magic Phase. No armor saves are allowed against wounds caused by this Breath Weapon. This spell can be augmented to cause Strength 4 hits instead. If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 12+.

4. Traitor-Kin (Cast on 10+). This is a direct damage spell with a range of 12". The target unit suffers D3 wounds per rank of 5 or more models, as the members of the unit start attacking each other. Hordes take D6 wounds per rank instead. No armor saves are allowed against wounds caused by this spell. This spell can be augmented to have a range of 24". If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 15+.

5. Mantle of Ghorok (Cast on 11+). This is an augment spell with a range of 12". One friendly character gains +D6 Strength and +D6 Attacks until the start of your next Magic Phase (roll separately for each attribute). If double 6's are rolled, the target takes one wound, with no armor saves allowed. This spell can be augmented to affect all friendly characters within 12". If cast in this way, the casting value is increased to 22+.

6. Savage Dominion (Cast on 18+). This spell allows you to bring your choice of a Cygor, Ghorgon, Giant, or Jabberslythe. The chosen monster appears on a table edge of your choice, and follows all the rules for reinforcements. This monster cannot be dispelled once he has arrived on the table, and does not provide any Victory Points if slain or pursued off the table. If the monster is slain, flees off the table, or if the caster is slain, the spell ends.

While the spell is active, the caster may not attack, channel, or cast spells. At the end of any phase when the monster takes one or more Wounds, the caster must pass a Toughness test or take a Wound, with no armor saves allowed.

Lords:

Beastlord
M 5, WS 6, BS 3, S 5, T 5, W 3, I 5, A 4, Ld 9
Special Rules: Incite, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 140 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+3 points), Great Weapon (+6 points), Halberd (+6 points), Heavy Armor (+6 points), Light Armor (+3 points), Shield (+3 points).
Mount Options: Razorgor (see Special section for details), Razorgor Chariot (see Special section for details, replaces Bestigor), Tuskgor Chariot (see Core section for details, replaces Bestigor). May have the Beastmen Ambush special rule (+15 points, may not be the army General).
Magic Items: May choose up to 100 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Doombull
M 6, WS 6, BS 3, S 6, T 5, W 5, I 5, A 5, Ld 8
Special Rules: Bloodgreed, Fear, Impact Hits (D3), Slaughterer's Call.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Type: Monstrous Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 230 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+5 points), Great Weapon (+12 points), Heavy Armor (+5 points), Shield (+5 points).
Magic Items: May choose up to 100 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Great Bray-Shaman
M 5, WS 5, BS 3, S 4, T 5, W 3, I 4, A 2, Ld 8
Special Rules: Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 185 points/model.
Magic: A Great Bray-Shaman is a Level 3 Wizard. He may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows, or Lore of the Wild.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+3 points), Level 4 Wizard (+35 points). May have the Beastmen Ambush special rule (+15 points, may not be the army General).
Mount Options: Razorgor Chariot (see Special section for details, replaces Bestigor), Tuskgor Chariot (see Core section for details, replaces Bestigor).
Magic Items: May choose up to 100 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Heroes:

Bray-Shaman
M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 4, W 2, I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Special Rules: Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 75 points/model.
Magic: A Bray-Shaman is a Level 1 Wizard. He may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows, or Lore of the Wild.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+2 points), Level 2 Wizard (+35 points). May have the Beastmen Ambush special rule (+10 points, may not be the army General).
Mount Options: Razorgor Chariot (see Special section for details, replaces Bestigor), Tuskgor Chariot (see Core section for details, replaces Bestigor).
Magic Items: May choose up to 50 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Gorebull
M 6, WS 5, BS 3, S 5, T 5, W 4, I 4, A 4, Ld 7
Special Rules: Bloodgreed, Fear, Impact Hits (D3), Slaughterer's Call.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Type: Monstrous Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 115 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+4 points), Great Weapon (+11 points), Heavy Armor (+4 points), Shield (+4 points). May take a Magic Standard (no points limit), but may not take magic items if he takes a Magic Standard.
Magic Items: May choose up to 50 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Wargor
M 5, WS 5, BS 3, S 4, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 3, Ld 8
Special Rules: Incite, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Infantry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 70 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+2 points), Great Weapon (+4 points), Halberd (+4 points), Heavy Armor (+4 points), Light Armor (+2 points), Shield (+2 points). May be the Battle Standard-Bearer for +25 points. May take a Magic Standard (no points limit), but may not take magic items if he takes a Magic Standard. May have the Beastmen Ambush special rule (+10 points, may not be the army General).
Mount Options: Razorgor (see Special section for details), Razorgor Chariot (see Special section for details, replaces Bestigor), Tuskgor Chariot (see Core section for details, replaces Bestigor).
Magic Items: May choose up to 50 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Warhoof
M 8, WS 5, BS 3, S 4, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 4, Ld 8
Special Rules: Drunken Bravado, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Cavalry (Character).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 85 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Great Weapon (+6 points), Heavy Armor (+6 points), Light Armor (+3 points), Shield (+3 points), Spear (+3 points), Throwing Axes (+3 points). May have the Beastmen Ambush special rule (+15 points, may not be the army General).
Magic Items: May choose up to 50 points in magic items from the Warhammer Rulebook and the Beastmen Army Book lists.

Core:

Chaos Warhounds
M 7, WS 4, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 5
Special Rules: None.
Equipment: Fangs (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: War Beast.
Unit Size: 5+
Cost: 6 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Beastmen Ambush (+1 points/model), Poisoned Attacks (+1 points/model), Scaly Skin (6+) (+1 points/model).

Gor Herd
M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Shield.
Unit Type: Infantry.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 7 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapons (+1 points/model). Standard-Bearer may take a Magic Standard of up to 25 points.
Command Options: Foe-Render (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Tuskgor Chariot
Chariot: M -, WS -, BS -, S 5, T 5, W 4, I -, A -, Ld -
Gor: M -, WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T -, W - , I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Bestigor: M -, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T -, W -, I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Tuskgors: M 7, WS 3, BS -, S 4, T -, W -, I 2, A 1, Ld -
Special Rules: Primal Fury.
Equipment: Great Weapon (Bestigor Only), Spear (Gor Only), Tusks (Hand Weapon, Tuskgors Only).
Unit Type: Chariot (Armor Save 4+).
Unit Size: 1 Chariot, crewed by 1 Bestigor and 1 Gor, drawn by 2 Tuskgors.
Cost: 80 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Scythed Wheels (+5 points).

Ungor Herd
M 5, WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 6
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Shield.
Unit Type: Infantry.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 5 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Spears (free swap).
Command Options: Halfhorn (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Ungor Raiders
M 5, WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 6
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Primal Fury, Skirmisher.
Equipment: Bow, Hand Weapon.
Unit Type: Infantry.
Unit Size: 5-10.
Cost: 6 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Exchange Bows for Javelins and Shields (+1 points/model).
Command Options: Raider Halfhorn (+1 BS) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points.

Special:

Bestigor Herd
M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 8
Special Rules: Despoilers, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Great Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armor.
Unit Type: Infantry.
Unit Size: 10+
Cost: 12 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Halberds (free swap). Gouge-Horn may take a Magic Item or Gift of Chaos of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may take a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Gouge-Horn (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Centigor Herd
M 8, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 2, Ld 7
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Drunken Bravado, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Shield, Spear.
Unit Type: Cavalry.
Unit Size: 5-15.
Cost: 18 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Great Weapons (+4 points/model), Heavy Armor (+2 points/model, lose Beastmen Ambush), Throwing Axes (+2 points/model).
Command Options: Gorehoof (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Harpies
M 5, WS 3, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 2, Ld 6
Special Rules: Fly.
Equipment: Claws and talons (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Infantry.
Unit Size: 5-10.
Cost: 11 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Scouts (+3 points/model).

Minotaur Herd
M 6, WS 4, BS 3, S 5, T 4, W 3, I 3, A 3, Ld 7
Special Rules: Bloodgreed, Fear, Impact Hits (1).
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor.
Unit Type: Monstrous Infantry.
Unit Size: 3+
Cost: 45 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Additional Hand Weapon (+4 points/model), Great Weapon (+8 points/model), Heavy Armor (+4 points/model), Shield (+4 points/model). Bloodkine may take a Magic Item or a Gift of Chaos of up to 25 points, Standard-Bearer may take a Magic Standard of up to 50 points.
Command Options: Bloodkine (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Murder of Crows
M 2, WS 3, BS 0, S 2, T 2, W 5, I 4, A 5, Ld 4
Special Rules: Armor Piercing, Fly, Heralds of Doom.
Equipment: Beaks and Talons (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Swarm.
Unit Size: 2+
Cost: 30 points/base.
Upgrade Options: Vanguard (+5 points/base)

Razorgor Chariot
Chariot: M -, WS -, BS -, S 5, T 6, W 5, I -, A -, Ld -
Gor: M -, WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T -, W - , I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Bestigor: M -, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T -, W -, I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Razorgor: M 7, WS 3, BS -, S 5, T -, W -, I 2, A 4, Ld -
Special Rules: Fear, Impact Hits (D6+1), Primal Fury, Thunderous Charge (Razorgor Only).
Equipment: Great Weapon (Bestigor Only), Spear (Gor Only), Tusks (Hand Weapon, Razorgor Only).
Unit Type: Chariot (Armor Save 4+).
Unit Size: 1 Chariot, crewed by 1 Bestigor and 1 Gor, drawn by 1 Razorgor.
Cost: 125 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Scythed Wheels (+5 points).

Razorgor Herd
M 7, WS 3, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 3, I 2, A 4, Ld 6
Special Rules: Fear, Impact Hits (1), Thick Skinned, Thunderous Charge.
Equipment: Tusks (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monstrous Beast.
Unit Size: 1+
Cost: 55 points/model.

Razorgor Riders
Razorgor Rider: M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 2, Ld 8
Razorgor: M 7, WS 3, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 3, I 2, A 4, Ld 6
Special Rules: Fear, Impact Hits (1), Primal Fury; Thick Skinned, Thunderous Charge (Razorgor Only).
Equipment: Heavy Armor, Spear (Razorgor Rider); Tusks (Razorgor).
Unit Type: Monstrous Cavalry.
Unit Size: 3+
Cost: 65 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Great Weapons (+5 points/model), Halberds (+5 points/model).
Command Options: Razorgor Herder (+1 A) for +10 points, Musician for +10 points, Standard-Bearer for +10 points.

Rare:

Chaos Spawn
M 2D6, WS 3, BS 0, S 4, T 5, W 3, I 2, A D6+1, Ld 10
Special Rules: Fear, Random Attacks (D6+1), Random Movement (2D6), Unbreakable.
Equipment: Claws and tentacles (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monstrous Beast.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 50 points/model.
Upgrade Options: Random Movement (3D6) (+5 points).

Cygor
M 6, WS 3, BS 3, S 6, T 5, W 5, I 3, A 5, Ld 10
Special Rules: Ghostsight, Hurl Rocks, Large Target, Magic Resistance (2), Soul-Eater, Stubborn, Terror, Ward Save (5+).
Equipment: Horns and fists (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monster.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 225 points/model.

Giant
M 6, WS 3, BS 3, S 6, T 5, W 6, I 3, A special, Ld 10
Special Rules: Giant Special Attacks, Large Target, Stubborn, Terror.
Equipment: Club (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monster.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 200 points/model.

Ghorgon
M 7, WS 4, BS 0, S 6, T 6, W 6, I 3, A 6, Ld 10
Special Rules: Bloodgreed, Impact Hits (D6), Immune to Psychology, Killing Blow, Large Target, Regeneration, Stubborn, Swallow Whole, Terror.
Equipment: Cleaver-limbs (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monster.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 250 points/model.

Jabberslythe
M 8, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 4, A 5, Ld 10
Special Rules: Aura of Madness, Disturbing Appearance, Fly, Immune to Psychology, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration, Scaly Skin (4+), Slythey Tongue, Spurting Bile-Blood, Stubborn, Terror.
Equipment: Claws and tentacles (Hand Weapon).
Unit Type: Monster.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 275 points/model.

Special Characters - Lords:

Gorthor the Cruel
Gorthor: M 5, WS 7, BS 3, S 5, T 5, W 3, I 5, A 5, Ld 10
Chariot: M -, WS -, BS -, S 5, T 5, W 4, I -, A -, Ld -
Bagrar: M -, WS 4, BS -, S 4, T -, W -, I 4, A 2, Ld 8
Tuskgors: M 7, WS 3, BS -, S 4, T -, W -, I 2, A 1, Ld -
Special Rules: Favored of the Dark Gods, Immune to Psychology, Primal Fury, Terror.
Unit Type: Infantry (Special Character; Beastlord); Chariot (Armor Save 4+).
Unit Size: Gorthor, mounted on a Tuskgor Chariot, crewed by Bagrar, drawn by 2 Tuskgors.
Equipment: Cloak of the Beastlord, Impaler, Heavy Armor, Scythed Wheels, Skull of Mugrar (Gorthor); Spear (Bagrar); Tusks (Tuskgors).
Cost: 400 points.
Upgrade Options: May be mounted on a Razorgor Chariot instead of a Tuskgor Chariot (+50 points, Gorthor and Bagrar replace both crew).

Bagrar: Bagrar is Gorthor's personal charioteer, and has the improved profile presented above.

Favored of the Dark Gods: At the beginning of each of your friendly Magic Phases, roll a D6 and consult the Lore of Death in the Warhammer rulebook. Gorthor may cast the spell corresponding to that D6 roll as a Bound Spell with a level equal to one-half the casting cost of the spell.

Impaler: Magic Weapon. Requires Two Hands. This magic weapon has the Killing Blow and Multiple Wounds (D3) special rules. In addition, close combat attacks made with it on a turn that Gorthor charges are made at +1 Strength.

Cloak of the Beastlord: Magic Talisman. This item grants Gorthor a 4+ Ward save and the Immune to Psychology special rule. In addition, it increases the range of Gorthor's Inspiring Presence special rule to 18".

Skull of Mugrar: Enchanted Item. Gorthor's chariot causes Terror. Additionally, any attacks against Gorthor or his chariot at a Strength higher than 5 are counted as Strength 5. This item also grants Gorthor and his chariot immunity to the Multiple Wounds special rule. Note that this item is part of Gorthor's chariot, and is thus lost if the chariot is destroyed.

Khazrak the One-Eye
M 5, WS 7, BS 1, S 5, T 5, W 3, I 5, A 5, Ld 9
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Bestial Cunning, Incite, Master of Hounds, Primal Fury.
Unit Type: Infantry (Special Character; Beastlord)
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Scourge, The Dark Mail.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 250 points.

Bestial Cunning: Khazrak may be your army General, even though he has the Beastmen Ambush special rule. Additionally, units in the same army as Khazrak with the Beastmen Ambush special rule may re-roll the dice when determining if they enter play.

Master of Hounds: If Khazrak is your General, units of Chaos Warhounds are treated as having a Leadership value of 6.

Scourge: Magic Weapon. Khazrak fights with this weapon and an additional hand weapon (extra attack included in the profile above). All attacks made by Khazrak in close combat have the Armor Piercing special rule. Khazrak may forgo his normal Attacks and instead make an attack for every enemy model in the front rank of a unit he is in base contact with. These attacks always target the unit, and are distributed as shooting. This special ability cannot be used in a challenge.

The Dark Mail: Magic Armor. This armor grants Khazrak a 2+ armor save, and immunity to the Killing Blow special rule. Additionally, any magic and runic weapons used by enemy models in base contact with Khazrak have no effect - treat them as non-magical weapons of their type.

Malagor, the Dark Omen
M 5, WS 5, BS 3, S 4, T 5, W 3, I 4, A 2, Ld 8
Special Rules: Fly, Loremaster (Lore of the Wild), Primal Fury, Something Wicked This Way Comes, Unholy Power.
Unit Type: Infantry (Special Character; Great Bray-Shaman).
Equipment: Icons of Vilification.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 350 points.

Magic: Malagor is a Level 4 Wizard.

Something Wicked This Way Comes: Enemy units within 6" of Malagor may not use the General's Inspiring Presence special rule.

Unholy Power: Malagor has a 4+ Ward save. Additionally, every spell that he successfully casts in a Magic phase gives him a cumulative +1 bonus to further casting attempts during that phase.

Icons of Vilification: Units within 6" of Malagor become Frenzied on a Primal Fury test result of any double, as long as they have passed the test.

Morghur
M 3D6, WS 6, BS 3, S 5, T 5, W 4, I 5, A 2D6, Ld 10
Special Rules: Aura of Transmutation, Primal Fury, Random Attacks (2D6), Random Movement (3D6), Reign of Madness, Spirit-Essence of Chaos, Terror, Unbreakable, Ward Save (4+).
Unit Type: Unique (Special Character).
Equipment: Skull-Weave, Staff of Morghur.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 360 points.

Aura of Transmutation: Morghur cannot be harmed in any way by shooting attacks or spells, unless the attack or spell originates from within 12" of him. Additionally, enemy models in base contact with Morghur take an S5 hit at the start of the Close Combat phase, with no armor saves allowed. Morghur may not join units.

Reign of Madness: Friendly units within 6" of Morghur are subject to the Frenzy special rule. If those units are subject to the Bloodgreed special rule, they instead receive one additional attack (just as if they had won a round of close combat). Additionally, models within 6" of Morghur cannot lose the Frenzy special ability, even if beaten in close combat.

Skull-Weave: Enchanted Item. Morghur causes Terror, and close combat attacks made against him are at -1 to hit.

Spirit-Essence of Chaos: At the beginning of each of your turns, you may choose to remove a friendly model within 12" of Morghur from play. If you do, roll a D6. On a 3+, you may place a Chaos Spawn model anywhere within 12" of Morghur, provided there is space for the model and you have an appropriate model available (if either of these requisites is not met, the model cannot be placed). This Chaos Spawn does not provide the enemy with Victory Points if slain.

Staff of Morghur: Magic Weapon. Requires Two Hands. Whenever Morghur inflicts an unsaved wound against an enemy model and the model is not slain, the enemy model must pass a Toughness test or undergo a gruesome transformation that slays the enemy model and places a Chaos Spawn into play under your control. Chaos Spawn created in this way must be placed within 6" of Morghur, provided there is space for the model and you have an appropriate model available (if either of these requisites is not met, the model cannot be placed). This Chaos Spawn does not provide the enemy with Victory Points if slain.

Taurox, the Brass Bull
M 6, WS 6, BS 3, S 6, T 6, W 5, I 5, A 6, Ld 8
Special Rules: Bloodgreed, Brass Body, Impact Hits (D3+1), Slaughterer's Call, Terror.
Equipment: Rune-tortured Axes.
Unit Type: Monstrous Infantry (Special Character; Doombull).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 335 points.

Brass Body: Taurox has a 1+ armor save. However, if he suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that hit him on a natural roll of "6", and wounded him on a natural roll of "6", he will be slain instantly.

Rune-tortured Axes: Magic Weapon. Paired Weapons (extra Attack included in the profile above). Attacks with these axes are Flaming Attacks and ignore armor saves.

Special Characters - Heroes:

Ghorros Warhoof
M 8, WS 6, BS 3, S 5, T 5, W 2, I 4, A 4, Ld 8
Special Rules: Drunken Bravado, Primal Fury, Sons of Ghorros.
Equipment: Heavy Armor, Mansmasher, Skull of the Unicorn Lord.
Unit Type: Cavalry (Special Character; Warhoof).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 175 points.

Father of Beasts: If Ghorros is slain, all Beastmen units in the army receive +1 Leadership when making Primal Fury tests.

Mansmasher: Magic Weapon. Requires Two Hands. This weapon has the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule.

Skull of the Unicorn Lord: Enchanted Item. This item grants Ghorros a 5+ Ward save and Magic Resistance (2). However, all units in a Wood Elf army gain the Hatred special rule against Ghorros and his unit.

Sons of Ghorros: Ghorros must always be accompanied by a unit of Centigors, and may join no other unit. The Sons of Ghorros are a unit of Centigors that have +1 Weapon Skill. While any member of the unit is still alive (including the unit champion, if any), Ghorros benefits from a Look Out Sir! roll against any applicable attack.

Moonclaw, Son of Morrslieb
Moonclaw: M 5, WS 4, BS 4, S 4, T 4, W 2, I 3, A 3, Ld 7
Umbralok: M 7, WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 4, W 3, I 3, A 3, Ld 6
Special Rules: Immune to Psychology, Primal Fury, Ward of Morrslieb, Wave of Insanity, Scaly Skin (5+) (Moonclaw); Fear, Thick-Skinned (Umbralok)
Equipment: Staff of the Moon (Moonclaw); Teeth and Claws (Umbralok).
Unit Type: Infantry (Special Character; Moonclaw); Monstrous Beast (Umbralok).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 175 points.
Upgrade Options: May ride Umbralok (+50 points).

Magic: Moonclaw is a Level 2 Wizard that generates spells from the Lore of Heavens. He automatically knows the spell Comet of Cassandora, and the other is rolled as normal.

Staff of the Moon: Magic Weapon. Requires Two Hands. This weapon confers the Always Strikes Last special rule in close combat, and attacks made using it are at +2 Strength. It is also a shooting weapon with the following profile:

Range - 24"
Strength - 4
Special Rules - Armor Piercing, Ignores Cover, Multiple Shots (D6), Quick to Fire

Thick-Skinned: Umbralok adds +2 to Moonclaw's armor save, instead of +1.

Ward of Morrslieb: Moonclaw has a 5+ Ward save and Magic Resistance (3).

Wave of Insanity: Enemy units within 12" of Moonclaw are subject to the Stupidity special rule.

Slugtongue
M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 4, W 2, I 3, A 1, Ld 7
Special Rules: Curse of the Famine-Fiend, Fear, Poisoned Attacks, Primal Fury, Regeneration
Equipment: Doomstaff.
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 200 points

Magic: Slugtongue is a L2 Wizard that can generate spells from the Lore of the Wild or the Lore of Death.

Curse of the Famine-Fiend - During deployment, roll a D6 for each enemy unit and consult the following chart:

1: No effect.
2-4: The unit suffers D3 wounds, with no armor save allowed.
5-6: The unit suffers D6 wounds, with no armor save allowed.

Doomstaff: Arcane Item. This item allows Slugtongue to re-roll the dice when determining the number of hits caused by any direct damage spell he casts.

Ungrol Four-Horn
M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 2, I 4, A 3, Ld 7
Special Rules: Beastmen Ambush, Bruised and Bitter, Primal Fury.
Equipment: Heavy Armor, The Stolen Crowns, Two Hand Weapons.
Unit Type: Infantry (Special Character; Ungor).
Unit Size: 1.
Cost: 80 points.

Bruised and Bitter: Ungrol may re-roll any Fear, Panic, or Primal Fury tests. However, Ungrol may not be the General, and he cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence special ability. This ability extends to any unit joined by Ungrol.

The Stolen Crowns: Enchanted Item. At the beginning of each of your turns, you may choose one of the following benefits until the start of your next turn:

Spirit of the Chieftain - Ungrol gains +2 Weapon Skill and +1 Strength.
Spirit of the Shaman - Ungrol becomes a Level 1 Wizard, generating spells from the Lore of the Wild (roll for spells each time you choose this ability).

I figured we could brainstorm over these together, and feel free to add your own ideas. So... what do you think? :)

This makes an awesome beginning for a massive chariot and razorgor herd based army. I love the idea of fielding 10 tuskgor chariots for my core.

The Ghorgon would be nearly as powerful as the Hell Pit Abomination with those rules against those armies that have problems with HPA's already.

I don't think it's quite as bad as the A-bomb. It doesn't have the offense. You can't really compare 7 attacks with the potential to grow as he wins rounds of combat to anything on that attack chart.

No but the HPA is pretty inflated. Still I would not mind much for that Ghorgons. Would probably make them been seen a LOT more though, which in turn is fine.

A lot of the Wild spells are good thematically, I just think the casting costs are off and the abilties need tweeking. Things like Devolve and the Aura of madness should just test on their own un modified and BSB re-rollable ld test. Change Traitor-kin and the rest are cool. It would need an Attribute too.
Now that Hagtree's gone, Viletide could either be 5d6 st1 no armour saves or just 4d6 str 2?
Bestial Surge can allow you to move into combat as if charged?

Does anyone have ideas of new stuff that could be added to the list, as well as how to tweak what is already there?

Thematically, I was thinking that something like a flock of crows would work - so a flying swarm like Bats in the Vampire Counts list. Not sure what points or stats would be.

I feel like giving Beastmen Ambush to Centigors is too strong. What I would like is to have a generic Centigor character added to the list. I would also move Centigors to core and add a new unit of Besti-Centi-gors to special. Thus making Centigor-themed armies easier to do. This would fit very well with a cool plastic kit for Centigors, of course.

There are also a couple of things from the 6th edition army book that I'd like to see back - a braystaff for the Bray-Shamans and Dragon Ogres.

Then how about an item that allows characters to ambush? Or that allows them to come in whenever you want?

:EDIT:

Yes. Much too. I think they should be cheaper though, but have a max pack size.

:2ND EDIT:

Oh, and what about specific gifts of chaos. Some are in a bit of a grey area and just seem like general mutations rather than favours from the dark gods.

Very sensible entries. You avoided the trap of an omgbbq ghorgon that kills armies on a 4+ and costs a point. ^_^

Even if we had this, we would'nt be overpowered, it's quite clear from even a semi knowledge of the game, yet GW still let our book slip through with apparently no testing of any substance. Sad pandagor.

I hate/love these threads. I get really excited about everything I see and then get sad that I can't have it...

I think the points tweaks are really good but if you are going to give ambush to centigor they need to be higher in points.

Regen and 4+ KB D3 wounds back on the ghorgon might be a bit much?

I really really want a return of marks. A toned down version of the WoC ones would be fine I just want em back :( I think that immune to psyc on the bestigors is a bit OP if they stay the same points but giving them the option of it for 20 pts by marking them with slaanesh would be fine.

Gors for the same price but with light armor equipped would be nice. Would you actually make thing about if the shield is still soo uselles or not. Being able to equip them halberds for 1 point would be nice as well.
No point in taking ungors if gors would be 6 pts.

And Ungor skirmisher 5-20 would be something nice as well.

And Primal Fury as a racial ability - means harpies razorgors etc, and other beast (beside minos, if they had PF it would be super eppic)

ITP aint that much. You know what would be much ? to have a 2A bestigor (which is the same cost as black guard, or swordsmen, just that he is ASL), now this would make some people cry i guess :P

I like the old BoC rules for ambushing half the units with the special rule. Personally I'd like to see ambush as an (buyable) upgrade for wargors as well.

Ambushing warhounds yah, ambushing centigors nay!
For me ambush should be reserved for rabble not "elite" units.

Magic banners: I'd go with a 25pts banner for a gor herd, a 50pts banner for minotaurs.

All right, time to justify some of my choices here.

If you notice, I didn't really trim the Ghorgon's price - he's still quite expensive. The idea behind the neo-Ghorgon is to be a durable monster that can actually stand and bang with regiments, something that is all too rare, IMO. We're all in agreement that the ones that can are overpowered and underpriced (Hydra and A-Bomb), so I jacked up the price and toned down the offense a bit as compared to them. You'll see a lot more of them roaming around with this change, and that's the point - you don't see many around right now, and that's not something I think is a good thing.

Regarding Centigor with Ambush... I think it makes them more useful, which is a good thing, because I don't feel like giving them more armor is a particularly good fit thematically. Plus, the fluff regards them as the swift messengers of the Beastmen - it was either this or Fast Cav. I can put a size cap on the unit if you feel that ambushing Hordes of Centigor would be over the top (I don't - that unit costs a gajillion points, and you need another unit with the Ambush rule just to be able to sneak it up on people!).

I'm surprised that my edited Spawn has gotten no love. He moves 3D6 and has a 5+ Ward - don't you think that makes him worth fielding? I'll also add Beastmen Ambush to characters as an upgrade.

Cool ideas all around.

My changes would be pretty simple:

- Gors come with shields. I think the setup would see more play, and my army would get 40 more points to play with. :)

- Warhounds have Ambush and count towards minimum core.

- Braystaff a la old BoC rules comes stock on our GBS.

- Ungor Raiders can reroll Ambush results. Bigger units would spend more time thrashing through the undergrowth and potentially move off course, but these little packs of practiced Ungors should be more reliable.

- Ditch the annoying and (in my opinion) useless ability to give a gift to a Bestigor champion.

Cheaper Minos/Centigors would be sensible and awesome, but I'm unsure what the adjustment should be. Maybe just the magic banner capability on Minotaurs would give them a boost? Or T5? Heavy Armor?

I agree, Lore of the Wild should be given a lore attribute. Bestial Surge for one friendly unit of caster's choice within a certain radius? Perhaps the Hagtree Fetish effect on one enemy unit for that turn? No idea. Devolve tests on unmodified Leadership.

I know our monsters have been discussed into oblivion but a user on Warseer submitted this very sound rewrite:

Ghorgon- 250pts

M7, WS4, BS0, S6, T6, W6, I3, A6, Ld10

Frenzy, Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Stubborn, Terror, Bloodgreed, Impact Hits (D6).

Swallow Whole- - All of a Ghorgons close combat attacks gain the Killing Blow Property, as the foe is devoured in a spectacularly messy frenzy!
Strength from Flesh- Each time the Ghorgon scores a Killing Blow, roll a dice. On a 4+ it immediately regains a wound. This may not take it above its starting value.


Cygor- 235pts

M7, WS2, BS1, S6, T5, W6, I3, A5, Ld8

Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Magic Resistance (3), Stubborn, Terror, Magical Attacks.

Ghostsight- When fighting enemy Wizards, Undead, or any model with some sort of magical weapon, magical attacks or a ward save, the Cygor may reroll missed attacks.
Hurl Attack- A Cygor may shoot as if it were a Stone Thrower, with no minimum range and Magical attacks. It may move and shoot, but not march in the same turn. If a Misfire is rolled, the Cygor suffers a single wound. If the template is aimed at a magical enemy (See Ghostsight), you may reroll the scatter dice.
Soul-Eater- Any wizard within 24" of a Cygor will suffer a Miscast if they roll 2 or more '1's when casting a spell. The spell automatically fails and will not benefit from Irresistable Force.
Magical Invigoration- The Cygor has a Ward save depending on how heavily the winds of magic are blowing. After rolling for the Winds of Magic, the Cygor gains a Ward Save. This will last until the beginning of the next Magic phase. 2-4 dice give no save at all, 5-8 dice give a 6+ save. 9-11 give a 5+ save, and 12 gives a mighty 4+ save!


Jabberslythe- 220pts

M8, WS4, BS4, S5, T5, W5, I3, A5, Ld9

Fly, Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Poisoned Attacks, Terror.

Aura of Madness- Each unit within 12" of a Jabberslythe at the start of the Beastman magic phase is faced with a wave of insanity. Roll 2D6 and subtract the units Ld, ignoring any bonuses from Inspiring Presence. The unit will suffer this many wounds, ignoring armour saves.
Slythey Tongue- The Jabberslythe has a shooting attack with Range 12", S5 and the 'Sniper' property.
Spurting Bile Blood- For every wound a Jabberslythe suffers in close combat, the unit who inflicted it will suffer an immediate S5 hit. This is randomised as shooting. If it should suffer more wounds than it has remaining, they will still generate hits.
Hard to look at- All attacks against the Jabberslythe, in both shooting and close combat, suffer -1 to hit.
Rank hide- The Jabberslythe has a 5+ scaly skin save.

EDIT: I really dig your idea for Spawn, rothgar13. That would be awesome! Giving them the 'Tide of Spawn' capability used in the epic battle at the end of the BRB would be cool, too.

Thats quite a nice list :)

Maybe we could add something to the Slythey Tongue attack of the Jabberslythe. As I understand right now it is just a shooting attack (with -1 to hit for long range above 6 inches even) but in the description it says something about dragging the target to the Jabberslythe. Combine it with the Sniper special rule and we have an interesting option.

In my opinion some of the options on the list are too cheap pts wise, which I think stems from undervalueing the Primal Fury special rule. I would raise the wargor price by about 5 pts, the tuskor chariot is WAY to cheap being a core chariot with Primal Fury and giving bestigors ItP for free seems very wrong as well ;)

Btw I would love to play your versions of the chaos spawn, in the old book I always took 1-3.

My unit prices are actually based on O&G's book, as they are quite similar to us from the stats perspective, and Choppas are arguably just as good as Primal Fury. I made the characters a bit more expensive than the Orcs', actually, to reflect that when they're in the unit, we grind a little better than Orcs. Elite troops across the game have ItP, especially in 8e - Black Orcs got it, Maneaters have the option for it, and Undead have it on everybody. Elite infantry has been either getting better or getting cheaper - I just picked a side.

I could consider Sniper on the Slythey Tongue. It would definitely enhance the Jabber's niche. The re-write on Aura of Madness also sounds appealing.

Looks great! I would like to see a second banner in our list, maybe something themed for the bestigors (kinda like VC and TK have banners that you know belong with the upgraded banner for a special unit). I would absolutely run the Ghorgon like this, and probably a Cygor also. But I did want to point out that unless you have a rule somewhere you did make it possible to ambush with razorgor chariots on the lords and heroes. I don't know if that was intentional but it kind of surprised me.

For lore of Wild, changing and labeling some of the spells to be augments or hexes would be pretty solid to start with. I think that the signature spell should be some sort of lore attribute (that may be too good honestly but it doesn't feel very signature like) and I would love to see something that gave re rolls for primal fury in the spell list, or gave hatred to a unit (so you can tag the minotaurs or ghorgon with it) Just a few ideas.

Cheers
~Verminard

Forest strider for our charriots ? .... would make a lot of sense (even backed up with our lore).

Oooh yeah. 8th ed has some seriously cool terrain rules. Forrests can be pretty harsh though and would be nice if we ignored some of the worse aspects, we do live in the trees afterall.

I uploaded my own attempt at a rewrite some time back at Warseer: Here's a link to the thread and the pdf-file with the 'errata': http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...455#post6015455.

As a sample of the list, here's what I'd like the Lore of the Wild to look like.

Lore of the Wild

• Bestial Surge (Lore Attribute): After resolving the effects of a successfully cast augment spell from the Lore of the Wild, one of the targeted units (or a unit including a targeted character) may make a move of up to D6" in the same way as a normal move made in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. A unit can only make this move once per turn.

• Incite Rage (Signature Spell). Cast on 7+. Incite Rage is an augment spell with a range of 12". Until the start of the caster's next Magic phase, the target gains Primal Fury and is considered to automatically pass the corresponding Leadership test(s) to gain Hatred. Should the target already have Primal Fury, it will instead be considered to automatically pass the corresponding Leadership test(s) on a double 1, gaining both Hatred and Frenzy. The caster can choose to target all friendly units within 12". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 14+.

• 1. Viletide. Cast on 7+. Viletide is a magic missile with a range of 24" that causes 5D6 S1 hits. The caster can choose to extend the range of this spell to 48". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 10+.

• 2. Traitor-kin. Cast on 10+. Traitor-kin is a hex spell with a range of 24". The target suffers a -1 modifier to all its To Hit rolls (both shooting and close combat) until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Shooting attacks that do not use Ballistic Skill must roll 4+ on a D6 before firing, or the shot(s) is lost. In addition, any close combat rolls To Hit of a 1 made by either a mount of any kind, monsters with handlers or creatures that pulls chariots in the unit will hit its own unit. The armour save bonuses for being mounted, and for barding and the like, are not used. The caster can choose to extend the range of this spell to 48". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 13+.

• 3. Bray-scream. Cast on 10+. Bray-scream is an augment spell with a range of 12" and is cast on a friendly character, which can be the Wizard himself. The target immediately makes a breath weapon attack, resolved at Strength 3, with no armour saves allowed. The caster may instead choose to boost the spell, in which case the targeted character may place the templates narrow end within 10" of itself, inside its forward arc and with the template pointed directly away from the character. Should the targeted character be in close combat, the boosted breath weapon attack will inflict an additional D6 hits. If the caster chooses to boost the spell, the casting value is increased to 15+.

• 4. Mantle of Ghorok. Cast on 10+. Mantle of Ghorok is an augment spell with a range of 12" and is cast on a friendly character, which can be the Wizard himself. The target gains +D6 Strength and +D6 Attacks (both to a maximum of 10) until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. Additionally, if double 6s are rolled, the target suffers a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed. The caster may instead choose to target all friendly characters within 12" (including himself). If he does so, the casting value is increased to 20+.

• 5. Devolve. Cast on 10+. Devolve is a direct damage spell with a range of 18". The Wizard rolls 2D6 and adds its Wizard Level to the score. For each point by which this score exceeds the target unit's Leadership, the target suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed. Wounds suffered are distributed as if from shooting. The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36" and the number of dices he rolls to 3D6. If he does so, the casting value is increased to 15+.

• 6. Savage Dominion. Cast on 18+. Savage Dominion is a unique spell. The Wizard may immediately place a Cygor, Ghorgon, Giant or Jabberslythe with its base touching any table edge. This model is effectively part of the Beastmen army from that moment on. While the Wizard controls the beast, every time the beast suffers a wound, the Wizard must make a Toughness test. If this test is failed, the Wizard suffers a wound, with no saves of any kind allowed. If the Wizard is killed, the beast wanders back into the forest and is immediately removed from play (it counts as being killed for the purposes of victory conditions etc.). Note that the beast cannot be voluntarily dismissed by the Wizard, be dispelled by the enemy in
followings rounds nor can the Wizard choose to cast the spell again whilst the beast remains.

Some good stuff in your re-write. It's reminded me that I should re-work the Scout and Ambush abilities a bit, and I think I like your version of Drunken more than mine. :)

That rewrite is amazing, very well done. I'd love to get my local to allow those rules.

The things that bother me lately are:
Minotaurs should get a magical banner
Re-write the auto-pass Primal Fury banner to be "any doubles causes Frenzy"
Want the Ambush Rule to use the BRB (honestly I think we could have this happen with enough snail mail to Jervis).

If you think that will actually help, I'll print a version of this I'm happy with along with some rationale and send that bad boy over.

Give minotaurs magic banners. That's all iv ever wanted, is it so wrong to want to run a mino list? I mean the ogres get to have magic banners on everything just about.
If I could standard of discipline my Minos with a doombull as my general bubble of nine I'd be a happy camper. And it would mean playing with something other than bestigors.

Well Ogre Kingdoms are...full of Ogres and I think a whole mino. army might be too far off what Beastmen are. You still need something other than Minos. I thought they could take banners anyway *checks* oh, not magic ones.

:EDIT:

@Rothgar13
Whether you were joking or not just remember that Jervis and Co. are probably bombarded with these sorts of fan made revisions for army books and such might skim them but what happens afterwards is down to resources. They aren't going to pull some guys off something they're currently working on just to review the suggestions. Maybe they have people for that purpose, I dunno. Further refinement first though? Personally I have no idea how any of this would effect my Beastmen because I don't have any ( :P ) and i'll probably just spam Gors but I can say that this revision must look official if to be sent off. Limit of one pic, not in colour, pref on the front cover or inside back cover (trust me I did IT at school!). Split everything up, Include contents if large, explain each section not "just because" and keep it uniform. List the "names" of those involved. Rational is good.

(ugh, I think my brain can sense uni approaching :( )

This is me simply saying which entry I preferred from the 2 lists we've seen and in some areas adding in my opinion.

Ambush - rothgar

Bloodgreed - rothgar

Drunken - rothgar

Primal Fury - rothgar

Gifts of Chaos - Rothgar, except Crown of Horns. I prefer Jonaer's purely because it's cheaper and on a balance level, potential of 3 4+ wards in the army seems ridiculous.

Magic Items - Jonaer, it still allows for all those synergies that most of us have grown to love. I'd say Horn of the Great Hunt could go and 30pts for the Axes is good.

Lore of the Wild - (until we've seen something from Rothgar or anyone else) Jonaer however, I think Incite Rage needs some work. I think this is purely because I liked Rothgars version of Primal fury and feel it may confuse things.

Bloodgreed - I really don't like Jonaer's idea for Bloodgreed. Counters make it confusing and Mino's will rarely get more than 3 attacks in a game anyway and at that point, the Mino's are near death, there are usually only characters left standing at this point unless it was chaff that was in thier way which is then generally used to redirect you which takes you off course and then a turn behind with them.

Doombull - Equipment costs altered which is fairly done however the Heavy armour option is cheaper for a Doombull than a Beastlord? I would say 8pts.

Beastlord - Rothgar

Great Bray - Rothgar, though 185 seems too cheap, I know it's not a lot different but, 190?
You based the list on O&G right? they are only limited to 1 lore, we have 4 to choose from.

Wargor - Rothgar, 75pts seems fairer?

Bray shaman - Rothgar

Gorebull - Rothgar however, why 115pts? That seems silly cheap. 130/140 perhaps? Also some of the equipment seems off points wise. Great weapon, 11pts? That's more than ours currently.

Command upgrades at 10pts a piece is fine in all regards and to be expected as with all future 8th ed releases.

Warhounds - Rothgar.
I think if the 'does not count toward minimum core' was removed, it would make Ungor Raiders near useless.

Gor herd - perhaps a middle ground of them both. 7pts each, hw & shield, 1/2pt for ahw?
Orc boyz start at 6pts at WS3, I2, M4 and come with light armour.

Ungor herd - I think they are fine as they are, though I think it should be free to swap to spears. It's tough because they are a lot better than common goblins (easy comparison) yet we would still have to pay up to 15pts more than we do currently due to the command upgrades.

Ungor Raiders - Rothgar

Tuskgor Chariot - I think is fine as is. Orc chariot (again easy comparison) has T5, I2, scythed wheels and Choppas on Orc crew only and are a Special choice. We have (in difference to the Orcs) Ws4, Primal Fury (including Tuskgor) and replace one crew for a Bestigor and in Core.

Special Units

Bestigor - Rothgar

Centigor - Rothgar

Minotaurs - Rothgar, Great weapons at 8pts seems rich to me. 6pts?

Razorgor herd - Rothgar

Razorgor Chariot - I do feel they are expensive, perhaps 135pts and adding +1 impact hit to account for the impact hit that a single Razorgor would give.

Giant - 200pts. Same as O&G

Cygor - Jonaer

Ghorgon - Both
Jonaer's Swallow whole and Strength from flesh
The rest, Rothgar however adding Regen and Impact hits, 250 seems too cheap now. 260?

Jabberslythe - Jonaer

Chaos Spawn - Rothgar, though I would change the Ward save to either Scaly skin or Regen. Seems more thematic.

Let the Brainstorming continue.

The main reason why Heavy Armor is cheaper for a Doombull than it is for a Beastlord is that I gave them Light Armor on the house, so they've already "paid" for half of it, at least from my perspective. I used the Ogre Tyrant as a base for that one.

I know that O&G only get one Lore, but their guy costs a LOT less than ours, even with my trim. Lord-level Wizards have been getting cheaper.

The Gorebull I compare to the Bruiser (who costs 10 points less). Nearly identical statlines, with the only difference being Bloodgreed, so that's where the gap comes from.

+1 Impact Hit for the Razorcart is a pretty good idea, actually. I'll bump the price a bit and add that.

Sure, as soon as the Champion doesn't get to use a Magic Item instead.

That's the balance I've seen in the books, but I admit, I haven't gone through the hardbacks yet.

I really like the idea. I will go even further and say if it will end up as a nice, balanced book available in PDF then it will be allowed in tournaments organised in Brighton Warlords!!!

My comments so far though- I think chariots are too cheap. To compare boar chariots are 80 points and are worse that tuskgor ones and dont belong to the core! Rule of a thumb with fan books is that its better to overprice that to underprice something as its easier to be accepted by a wider public (and I reckon thats what you guys want right?).

Rune of the true beast- 25 points for 2+ ward save vs. most of stuff in the game? Sorry, ridiculously cheap!



Thats my first impressions after vague read.

I didn't even notice The Rune of the True Beast. It's very situational item in it's original form or even rothgar's form. I think it wouldn't hurt to have it removed.
Though if it was decided that we must have 8 gifts then perhaps keep it as is and reduce it's cost to 10? Or go with rothgar's version and make it 'improves armour save by +2 to a maximum of 1+' instead of the ward save.

As for the chariots, you've got to bare in mind that on a point for point ratio, they're pretty well balanced, the boar chariot is: 85pts with Scythed wheels T5, I2, Ws3 and Choppas (+1 st 1st round of combat) for the crew who are armed with spears and the Boars are at +2 strength on the turn they charge.
Also fluff wise we've always been heavily chariot influenced, so to remove it as a core choice would be very un-beastmen like.

Also just noticed Bloodgreed. Essentially gaining swiftstride? We've already reduced the price of the Mino's and their characters. I don't like the D6 for overrun either.
Perhaps a sort of middle ground. Keep everything at the normal 2d6 for everything as per normal Monstrous infantry but when they successfully catch an enemy due to the result of an overrun/pursue they must stop where they catch them even if the dice roll would normally allow them to go further.

Have you, perchance, seen how much Wolf Chariots cost? Sure, they're crappier than ours in some respects (less Wounds, Armor 5+, Gobbos and Wolves won't be confused for Tuskgors and Gor/Bestigor), but they can shoot, can be packed into units, move 2" faster, AND have an extra Impact Hit, and everything else is the same! It's almost criminal how much better they are than ours. I might have overshot the points trim a bit, though, considering that Tuskgor Chariots are Core. As for the Rune of the True Beast... it's comparable to the Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem - conditional utility, can totally hose some things. And having a 2+ Ward save against S3 horses and the occasional monstrous beast (remember, no infantry or monstrous infantry) is really not going to upset most people.

I'm open to a re-working of Bloodgreed. I basically used the previous book's version, because it seems less crippling. Frenzy should be a double-edged sword, but not as much as current Bloodgreed makes it to be.

I still wouldn't put chariots lower than 75 points. As I said, better to overcost things that undecost them. I also dont want to remove them as a core, I just think they should stay roughly same cost as they are. Our chariots are still good. 65 points is too cheap.

Rune of True beast- not that situational really. 25 points for 2+ ward save against abominations, dragons and all other big gribblies? yes please :) I can assure you that a lot of people would think its too good. And you really don't want that. You want people to have a look at it and think "thats a good thing to take- not too crazy, but useful".


Also had a look at ghorgon- its far too good for 250 points. Regen, one attack with killing blow on 4+, all other hits being killing blow on 6+, impact hits. Sure, now its really overcosted but that doesn't mean we have to create a no-brainer choice like HPA in skaven army for example.

Oh I'm with you on the Chariot front, rothgar. I also said that I wouldn't change anything about the Tuskgor Chariots. It's worth saying that the O&G chariots are Special choices and are limited somewhat and there are a few other tasty options in their special choices which makes it not an immediate selection for the army. They are very fragile, and only Ld 6 so it's not difficult to break them.

I hadn't thought of the Rune in that way to be fair. And it now makes sense.

Actually i agree about the Razorcart being 130 instead of 145. Its slight differance but damn, if you actually calculate who does ride the cart
Pumba 55
Bestigor 12
Gor 7
you see where i am getting at ? I wouldnt mind there beying two bestigors for the price of that thing...

As for the Ghorgon you raise an interesting point. Gaining regen, d6 impact hits, killing blow and the 4+ KB attack at a reduced cost of 250 is perhaps a little OP it's now comparable to an A-bomb, which we don't want we're trying to balance with the 8th ed books not compete with the book that came out before us.
Regen 5+ or Scaly skin 4+, KB and 4+ KB attack would be fine at 260pts.
It's still the killing machine it should be with a bit of survivability, which we wanted.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I've made some tweaks to address your concerns. The Rune of the True Beast got dropped to a 4+ Ward, the Chariots got bumped back up in price a bit (though to be honest with you, I'd never use them), Gors have Shields by default and got bumped back up in points, and the Ghorgon's healing ability got toned down.

I've also done my re-write of the Lore of the Wild, based on some of the alternatives posted here and my own ideas. Have a look and tell me what you think! :)

Even if you give Gors shield, its useless as it comes when the AHW is still 1pts swap.
Either a free swap, or dont give them 1pts light armour - (though i would give the Light Armour and the shield as optional upgrade - would actually make the shield a viable option for the 5+)

Throw in a generic centigor character. Call him a Warhoof, 95 points. M8 WS5 S4 T4 BS3 A3 LD8 I3. Comes with a spear
Light armor 3, heavy armor 5, AHW 3, GW 7, sheild 3, throwing axes 2, Can be the bsb for 25. Can have 50 points of magic crap.
Has all the centigors Current special rules

I'm not enthused by the concept of a Centigor Hero, to be honest with you.