Ok,

Just post any information you have to play against the new High Elves, eventually I will sum all this up in a neat little post for easy viewing.

Thx for your help,
Grarrzag

Well being a horde army is a central advantage. The small elite army cannot take out all the threats, and if you are a decent player, you will have multiple units in threatening poisitions, rather then just hoping hhe won't shoot at your chariot/minos. a Beastherd in the flank is enough to womp HE core units, and if you get the charge on cavalry, ASF means squat, with Minos, DO and Centigors, we've got a great chance at outdistancing cavalry.

So make sure that there are too many threats during the HE magic/shooting phase.

Plus we are such a fast army that we can keep away from bad stuff. and wth hounds and flyers, these units can be march-blocked. Unless you are playing for fun, always keep away from the hard units.

hard stuff mainly being 20 Swordmasters with FC :blink: :o
lots of mooby guys will probably take that.

Plus i think dragons can be dealt with. if you have multiple hard hitting units, set these up so that if he charges one of them with the dragon, ur unit will flee, leaving it stranded for your other hard hitters. for this to work, you need to be placd far from the dragon, so your units are 15"+ away from them.

anyway thats my opinion :P

i've only played a couple of games against the new high elves and the only thing that does anything in the front are chariots. Everything else needs to hit in the flank. If he's all infantry then it'll be easy to outmanuever.

Biggest problem i have in 2000 pts is the star dragon with it's str 7 which kills chariots/knights/everything. Against a semi-good dragon player, he'll just fly around causing terror checks and charging you in the flank. Only thing i can think of that can stop the dragon is if you can get off beast cowers. Nothing else can win in combat against the dragon even if you get the charge off!

Beast Cowers is the only semi-reliable answer to dragons. Save it til the end after you've done the Wild Call and Wolf Hunts.

I think the star dragon deserves its own thread to be honest...

Against infantry : Chariots, chariots, and more chariots. I think in general 3-4 chariots are essential if you plan on facing high elves, they are our only unit that can hurt HE infantry without serious damage (even chosen knights going up against white lions head on will lose a model or two).

Avoiding the infantry is good too. Even if they are MSU units, you should still be able to outnumber and outflank them. The important thing is to never engage head on with anything besides chariots. Any units that can't do anything vs HE elite infantry should focus on taking down archers, RBTs, etc.

Against shooting: I imagine alot of HE armies will be sporting archers and RBTs. These can pose a huge problem, because they can pressure your forces into engaging the HE combat units. Ambushing is actually good here IMO. In general herds and flyers should be able to cause some damage. One note though is that furies will bounce off archers, between the stand and shoot and then the ASF attacks theres a good chance even a large fury unit will end up dying from a head on attack. Same goes for hounds. These 2 units should focus on engaging the war machine crews.

Herds should also be wary of archers, because T4 is not the ultimate protection. If you charge archers head on with a herd, make sure you have the resources to win combat even if you lose a few models before attacking, or atleast tie combat.

Against Cavalry/Chariots: This is the one part of the HE army I think we will have the least trouble with. We have a fair ammount of strength 7 in our army, and proper manuevering will mean you can get the charge off. Be very wary of the banner of ellyian though, because it can ruin your day if you get lured into a false sense of security because of terrain.

In general I see this as the lesser of the 3 evils. HE cavalry does not have any specific advantages over us that other cavalry doesn't. Dragon princes could cause a problem against minotaurs if they get lucky because of 2 S3 attacks each, but remember the horses go in initiative order, and with only a 2+ save our S6 units or S5 chariots can severaly damage HE cavalry.

As for chariots, just keep your herds safe. Fliers can be good against chariots if they get the jump (although lion chariots are a bit strong for this tactic), dragon ogres are very good, and of course a beastlord has S7.

I think our 4 factors that we can utilize that give us the potential to beat high elves are

1. Chariots. I seriously doubt the ability of beasts to win in the combat phase against HEs without these
2. Manueverability. Herds are skirmishers, and many of our units are M6 or M7, enough to get the jump on infantry and have a chance against cavalry.
3. Numbers. We will most likely always outnumber high elves. We will have more units, which helps in deployment, and be able to lose more models. So don't be entirely afraid of taking losses if it means you can take down an enemy target; although of course don't engage where the risk outweighs the gain (for example, charging 5 swordmasters with a 3 strong unit of minos).
4. Magic. I think magic is absolutely essential against HEs, much like it is against WEs. It allows us to do damage while staying out of combat, which is a HUGE advantage. Especially when you combine it with the high elves vulnerability to magic missiles. THis is pure speculation, but I imagine a non-magic heavy HE army will likely have just a caddy w/ 2 scrolls, due to the high price of their units (and the caddies).

As for marks, I would rate tzeentch as best, khorne as worst, with nurgle in 3rd and slannesh in 2nd place.

This is because khorne really provides very little benefit against high elves. Its normal advantage of higher attacks is outweighed by the fact that we cannot simply outmuscle HEs, which is the basis of khorne. Also, frenzy will force you to engage the enemy in bad situations

I view tzeentch as the best because it is the only mark that allows us to kill high elves where they can't hurt us, ie beyond base to base contact. Like I said, against magic defensive high elves we should be able to do alot of damage. Red fire is good, because even with sub-par rolling T3 helps out, and of course green fire is awsome against units like swordmasters or white lions. Also, we do not suffer from psychology against HEs as we do against say undead or DL. Dragons and panic are still a problem of course, but if you can take out enemy shooting fairly quickly, it isn't much of an issue.

i agree a lot with Daggoth. The main weakness of the high elves is shooting/war machines since they don't have high tough/armor saves and the dragon is a large target. Only thing is... we aren't dwarfs, empire or elves. We focus on combat... which can't do much against the ASF hard hitting elites.

I feel going Magic heavy (9-13 power dice with minimum 3 wizards+power familiar) is a must for several reasons.
1) If your oppenent is going magic heavy then you got them covered with your own magic defense since you'll have at least 6 dispel dice if not more. I usually run a Greater bray with 2 brays and power familiar giving me 11 power dice with 7 dispel dice with 1 dispel scroll. This locks down even heavy magic armies until i'm able to get into combat
2) If you opponent goes for the dragon then you go for beast cowers/hunters spear/wolf hunts
3) If you opponent goes infantry, you go magic missle crazy with death.

Magic is just too versitile against the new high elves that you can't go without it.

I'll agree back with you :P

I think the one good thing about the BoC vs HE match up is that changing our metagame to deal with them helps us out against almost all other match-ups.

Magic heavy beasts have always been competetive, especially tzeentch, even not taking into account GoC's rantings it could be considered the "best" mark we have.

And chariots are just awsome against everything. Its a relativly cheap deployment, hard hitting and takes up a core slot. They are one of our armies greatest inherent strengths.

So because of this, we do not really have to sacrifice anything in order to make our armies better equipped to beat high elves. For example an empire army may have to stock up on great cannons to face high elves even though in other situations they wouldn't, and some armies have to have excessive magic D just for specific match-ups. We are blessed in that maxing out on our advantages against high elves makes our army stronger against almost every other opponent out there.

glad too see we are of like minds Daggoth. =P

I haven't changed my general all comers list at all versus high elves
I always ran with 2 or 3 chariots and i'm a big fan of magic. keeping my guys undivided makes it very versitile against all lists. If they have cavalry or dragons, you can always do lore of beast and armies that don't utilize animals are usually vulnerable to magic missles.