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Title: Strange systems
Description: Black holes etc.


Arivald Ha'gel - June 18, 2006 02:51 PM (GMT)
I think there should be more solar systems in the game. Right now we have circa 20 solar systems. But as I belive there is a war going on between Ares and Commonwealth. This war encompasses several solar systems. If so... it should not be as long or devastating. Something like 80 solar systems in the game should be more appropiate and some of them should be without any friendly base, and some of them should be composed with only one race (or races/communities that are friendly to themself). This will not only create some homeworlds but also create some borders between Ares, Commonwealth and other species. Some border-worlds could still be conflict zones... and it will make sense to make a escort mission that spans few systems :-)
This is strange, that we can discover solar system with more that 5 types of base.
Ringers as superior race should have the possibility to appear within every other species' borders.
But there must have been more complex connections than it is now. At least that, that would make drawing map reasonable.

Some of these Solar Systems could hold some system-wide objects.
1) Black Hole (draws all ships to center of solar system, when a ship is near the centre of a system it sustains some damage every few seconds due to tidal gravitational force (diffrence of the force between two distant points on the hull). And upon arriving close, destruction by a black hole).
2) Super-Nova (makes every shield system unavailable) (changing to some shield interfering armor would make greater sense)
3) Neutron Star, White Dwarf (No Solar ability :-) Black Hole should take this ability away also)
4) EMPTY SYSTEM (just a natural border)

There is also another thing that systematically annoys me in game.
Why system is created when we enter it? Systems should be created beforehand at the beginning of a game. This would make possible balancing item apperance (I found a system with 5 ringer shipyards. Everything would be nice if every shipyard would have a diffrent artifact, but all of them had the same, if it is an artifact it should not be in 5 COPIES!) Or at least when randomizing items, you should bear in mind which artifacts are already present, and just eliminate chances that it will appear again.

Atheist_Chuck - June 18, 2006 03:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arivald Ha'gel @ Jun 18 2006, 09:51 AM)
I think there should be more solar systems in the game. Right now we have circa 20 solar systems. But as I belive there is a war going on between Ares and Commonwealth. This war encompasses several solar systems. If so... it should not be as long or devastating. Something like 80 solar systems in the game should be more appropiate and some of them should be without any friendly base, and some of them should be composed with only one race (or races/communities that are friendly to themself). This will not only create some homeworlds but also create some borders between Ares, Commonwealth and other species. Some border-worlds could still be conflict zones... and it will make sense to make a escort mission that spans few systems :-)
This is strange, that we can discover solar system with more that 5 types of base.
Ringers as superior race should have the possibility to appear within every other species' borders.
But there must have been more complex connections than it is now. At least that, that would make drawing map reasonable.

Some of these Solar Systems could hold some system-wide objects.
1) Black Hole (draws all ships to center of solar system, when a ship is near the centre of a system it sustains some damage every few seconds due to tidal gravitational force (diffrence of the force between two distant points on the hull). And upon arriving close, destruction by a black hole).
2) Super-Nova (makes every shield system unavailable) (changing to some shield interfering armor would make greater sense)
3) Neutron Star, White Dwarf (No Solar ability :-) Black Hole should take this ability away also)
4) EMPTY SYSTEM (just a natural border)

There is also another thing that systematically annoys me in game.
Why system is created when we enter it? Systems should be created beforehand at the beginning of a game. This would make possible balancing item apperance (I found a system with 5 ringer shipyards. Everything would be nice if every shipyard would have a diffrent artifact, but all of them had the same, if it is an artifact it should not be in 5 COPIES!) Or at least when randomizing items, you should bear in mind which artifacts are already present, and just eliminate chances that it will appear again.

If the game is balanced, e.g. in every game there is equal chance to find a certain item, it would take away most of the replayability of the game.

EDIT: But i do like the idea of different systems though...

Arivald Ha'gel - June 18, 2006 06:59 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Atheist_Chuck @ Jun 18 2006, 06:32 AM)
If the game is balanced, e.g. in every game there is equal chance to find a certain item, it would take away most of the replayability of the game.

I do not want equal chance to find a certain item. But there should not be 6 alien atrifacts of the same spec in the system (and these were only alien artifacts in the game).

I belive if the game would be balanced it will give more replayability. Right now there are games that can't be won. It is possible that you won't find weapons to defeat final boss. Also I had a game that I didn't found any mining colony which at the time was essential.
It is also possible not to find any ice farm, or even commonwealth fortress. (which will take away military id, and denied you a chance to take a mission in military). If everything is possible, then you should also consider bad aspects of it.

I think that game should be balanced, by generating systems that were generated already, or generating all at once. Then by excluding certain types of stations and/or items you will be able to create systems with more replayability.

When I see "alien artifact" I think this item is somehow special and should be exceptional. If this item is in 4 of 6 ringer shipyards in one system... still only one of them is useful.

ThorWarriorX - June 18, 2006 07:08 PM (GMT)
Go on. Make 80 systems at the beggining of the game. But don't get angry when the game crashes.

dvlenk6 - June 18, 2006 09:26 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arivald Ha'gel @ Jun 18 2006, 09:51 AM)
...Why system is created when we enter it? Systems should be created beforehand at the beginning of a game...
All systems are already created, and the system topology (stargate network) computed, when a new game starts.

Balancing and diversification are an ongoing operation. Remember, Transcendence is still in a developmental stage. I think there are a lot of item duplications for the higher level devices because there aren't very many to choose from.

On the bright side, StarSystemTopology and Global Functions will be extension compatible in the next version :) . This will allow much more in depth extensions at the system level.

Arivald Ha'gel - June 19, 2006 05:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (ThorWarriorX @ Jun 18 2006, 10:08 AM)
Go on. Make 80 systems at the beggining of the game. But don't get angry when the game crashes.

Why should it crash? Model layer for such a game should be scalable, and if it crashes... well... what are reports for? Author will repair bug hopefully :)

It don't make diffrence if there are 4 atrifacts in the database of 4000 artifacts. Right now there is still a chance that all artifacts in the game will be the same. Only if we would be able to exclude previously chosen alien artifact from being randomized again we will be able to ensure that specific alien artifact is truly exceptional and has only one copy :)

dvlenk6 - June 19, 2006 10:15 AM (GMT)
I think it does make a difference if there are 4 or 4000 types of artifacts. Obviously if there are 1000 times as many to pick randomly from, the chance of repeating a choice is 1000 times less.

There is a modifier for items, 'notrandom'. An item, like the stargate control rod, with that will never be found in a shop, it has to be placed somewhere to be found. I don't think the normal run of the mill alien artifacts are meant to be unique, or they would have notrandom attached to them.

Quite a few 'unknown alien artifacts' aren't even 'veryrare', some of them are just 'uncommon', and found all over the place. At the high levels of the end game, there are only a few that will be found, so they repeat constantly.

Falconer - June 21, 2006 05:15 PM (GMT)
It must also be taken into account that any stargates built in systems where there have been super novas and black holes have been destroyed, and since the stargate is the only form of faster than light travel between systems, you would not be able to get to such systems.

Yugimotomanager - June 21, 2006 05:19 PM (GMT)
Well, I believe it would depend on where the black hole is in the system, and how large the black hole is.

Mattman - June 21, 2006 05:25 PM (GMT)
Nope, laws of physics mean that ANY black hole has a HUGE gravitaitonal pull, so the stargate would be pulled in unless it was a phenonemal distance away so it wouldn't be there. The alternative is to have engines on the stargate, keeping it in a constant place despite the fact that the engines would need to be running all the time. Still, it's possible.

F50 - June 21, 2006 06:41 PM (GMT)
That would still be unfeasible because then the player (not even an upgraded Wolfen) wouldn't be able to withstand the pull themselves. Also, what would happen to the planets? how would you get a stable orbit for them?

Mattman - June 21, 2006 06:44 PM (GMT)
Clearly there would be no planets, and the system would have to be made of stations, all of which would need thrusters to keep them being sucked in, making their position there ridiculous, and they would clearly be better positioned in a more friendly system.

the_holy_thom - June 21, 2006 07:07 PM (GMT)
One theory says that the universe is a 5 dimensional black hole. The maths all checks out, so there's no reason why we shouldn't be

dvlenk6 - June 21, 2006 07:11 PM (GMT)
Einstein, upon whose work 'black holes' are based, denied their existence as anything more than a mathematical curiosity. Who am I to argue with Albert Einstein?

Boris the Cat - June 21, 2006 07:20 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (dvlenk6 @ Jun 21 2006, 09:11 PM)
Einstein, upon whose work 'black holes' are based, denied their existence as anything more than a mathematical curiosity. Who am I to argue with Albert Einstein?

Einstein was also not so hot on quantum physics, yet that doesn't stop it from being one of the most revolutionary fields of modern science ;)

dvlenk6 - June 21, 2006 07:24 PM (GMT)
I only studied physics incidentally as a prerequisite for mechanical engineering. I'm not real current on theoretical branch of the subject.

Guest - June 21, 2006 07:49 PM (GMT)
The stargate could survive the supernova, making a supernova system a possiblity. the reson why i think that is because you can hit it with a mini sun and not scratch the paint job.

Falconer - June 21, 2006 08:00 PM (GMT)
Thats because your mini sun is just that, a mini sun. You have to take into acount that the sun is not just a ball of super heated gas, but a giant thermonuclear explosion waiting to happen. And there is a chance that the resulting explosion tears a hole in space/time and creates a black hole. Your Fusionfire Howitzer is only a burst of thermonuclear plasma.

Blackpheonix - June 22, 2006 04:29 AM (GMT)
ah man...why is it that when a conversation starts about stuff i talk about too often already i'm too tired to talk about it?....

Yugimotomanager - June 22, 2006 06:01 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Blackpheonix @ Jun 22 2006, 04:29 AM)
ah man...why is it that when a conversation starts about stuff i talk about too often already i'm too tired to talk about it?....

'Cause you saty up too late?

Blackpheonix - June 22, 2006 09:58 AM (GMT)
NO because i dislike participating in long discussions on FORUMS!!! as they go nowhere....maybe i just have a far to malleable mind...i don't take certain things as true fact...

Arivald Ha'gel - June 22, 2006 05:02 PM (GMT)
Black Hole is no diffrent than ANY object. It just have mass great enough that at some distance every object is sucked in. It just mean that when you cross this border there is no escape. There is no need that this horizon be far away from the centre of black hole. The greater the black hole mass, the farther this horizon is from the centre. Mass is a mass and it don't matter if it is a black hole, or it isn't. If some sun would become super-nova and later black hole, planets will survive, but because during super-nova explosion some of the mass flies away, some planets may just drift away. Creation of black hole CAN'T mean an increase of gravitational force (black hole has a mass... teperature also :)).

Every planet in every system is kept at it's orbit only with gravitational force of centre mass (sun, white dwarf, etc). If gravitational force will be increased (collision of suns... rather s-f :D) they will indeed be sucked, but if sun's mass will decrease (super-nova explosion) they will probably drift away (gravitational force of super-nova is smaller so centrifugal force of planet's movement will be stronger, and planet changes it's orbit, every circle it will be farther away).

But during red giant phase of star's life no mass is lost, so planets will stay at their orbits. Our sun will become red giant, and it will expand as much that Earth will be inside it (but after few million years when Sun became white dwarf Earth may still exist at the same orbit). The only problem is that gases of red giant are not the same material as vacuum, so it might slow her down a little. If it will slow her down and centrifugal force will be smaller... so sun might consume her at the centre. But such events take many years (millions, fastest are 100 thousands years). So we should not be worried about some planets to be destroyed :).

So every planet is moving (althought in transcendence you may not see it, however I'd like to). But if my ship is totally still it should be sucked by resultant force of grativational pull of every big-size (planet, asteroid, moon) object in this solar system. But it is possible (at least theoretically) to fly into a close orbit of a sun. But when you will arrive at close orbit of a black hole, you just may be tear apart (you don't exacly know were black hole is, so you might just go to close :-) ).

Black Hole is no diffrent than ANY astronomical object but it's gravitational force is to strong for a light to escape. So... there can also be a star inside... or even a diffrent universe...

dvlenk6 - June 22, 2006 09:39 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Boris the Cat @ Jun 21 2006, 02:20 PM)
Einstein was also not so hot on quantum physics...
I'm not so hot on quantum physics either.

Besides, Transcendence is a video game. If someone wants a black hole or a supernova, what's the problem?

Yugimotomanager - June 23, 2006 06:16 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arivald Ha'gel @ Jun 22 2006, 05:02 PM)
Black Hole is no diffrent than ANY astronomical object but it's gravitational force is to strong for a light to escape. So... there can also be a star inside... or even a diffrent universe...

Maybe black holes could act as secondary stargates, possibly sending you to random system within five systems of where you are? Instead of being that powerful, they could also act as a random-direction Transpace Jumpdrive.

Blackpheonix - June 23, 2006 06:28 AM (GMT)
or they could be an incredibly gruesome death of being crushed into who knows how small.....

Yugimotomanager - June 23, 2006 06:32 AM (GMT)
Maybe we could couple what I said with damaging armor and shields? When you exit the black hole you might have 30%-60% damage to your armor and shields?

If you ever managed to discover where a black hole, then it would be a useful weapon against enemies. You'd also have to prevent one appearing in the Heretic system, to avoid cheating against the Iocrym.

Guest - June 23, 2006 10:59 AM (GMT)
I would like to see suns to become dangerous and to have gravity. The reasoning behind this is to allow for different rules if you are going to fight near a sun - for example, a capital ship may briefly enter the sun so that it may throw off the fighters trailing it because fighters can't handle it. That, and maybe suns could have additional effects like scrambling sensors or the like, depending on the sun.

I also like the suggestion about blackholes doing damage and gravitation effects alongside the possibility of warping objects to other systems. This could prove interesting, especially if some debris could gather in some kind of 'graveyard' system that a blackhole leads to.


-Sabin Stargem

Arivald Ha'gel - June 23, 2006 02:47 PM (GMT)
Yugimotomanager you might have a nice idea. In our world it is also possible to enter a Black Hole but only if this Black Hole is rotating... maybe not every Black Hole should give the ability to warp to some system (or you might need some device to work with Black Holes).

Idea of gravity that a visitor to our forum introduced is nice :) I would like that one, however I would not be able to hide in the sun :) But also planets should have some gravitation, and it should be possible to land on a planet. Maybe some nice events? :) (or mining not only in the asteroids :))

Suns also should have some effects, dim red sun should give not much energy with solar armor or panel, while blue hot suns should give plenty (and a bigger radius of "light" area). Passing through a sun should be deadly (or maybe with some armors or shields or device it should be possible). Or being in the sun should damage shields and when they are gone armor. Better shields would regenerate faster but... it costs energy :) So we will not be able to hide in the sun and start autopilot :)

Gravity pull should be only effective within some area (similar to "light" arena of every sun).

the_holy_thom - June 23, 2006 04:49 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Black Hole is no diffrent than ANY object.


Sorry, but you are wrong here. Black holes are known as "singularities", which means that the laws of Physics don't apply too well inside them. Physicists hate this, as the laws should be universal, so we either have to change the way we think about Black Holes and come up with a method that doesn't violate anything, or change the laws themselves.

There are already many attempts to reconcile Einstein's Theory of General Relativity with Quantum Physics, many of which create new dimensions left, right and sideways. The leading idea at present is String Theory, which dictates that all particles are in fact vibrating parts of multidimensional strings, a fairly odd idea at best. should be fun to study though :) I just got my reading list from Warwick for Physics, so I'll be plowing through some rather odd stuff soon.

QUOTE
Gravity pull should be only effective within some area (similar to "light" arena of every sun).


The force of gravity is inversley proportional to the distance squared. Since everything else in Transcendence works when you put it into a calculator, there's no reason this shouldn't either.

For anyone who's interested, the gravitaional Force between objects 1 and 2 = A constant G x mass 1 x mass 2 / the distance between them squared

Arivald Ha'gel - June 24, 2006 07:21 AM (GMT)
I meant that when it comes to gravity black hole is no diffrent than any object. Of course whan is inside it is quantum physics job :)

dvlenk6 - June 24, 2006 07:31 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arivald Ha'gel @ Jun 23 2006, 09:47 AM)
.and it should be possible to land on a planet.
:D I'd really like to be able to land on planets, even if they were only treated as a very large station.

Yugimotomanager - June 24, 2006 09:28 AM (GMT)
Yeah, maybe something like "You have landed on a small colony on the planet Scribblefab"....then some description, then options. The less-developed planets would be like agricultural stations, and the more advanced colonies would be more like advanced commonwealth stations. I'd like to see a Ringer planet. Seeing dockscreens for stuff like this would be great.

Maybe some small colonies would give you missions to go and get some supplies for them, or even protective missions you get already in station form?

I thing finally having planets actually do something would expand the Transcendence universe by quite a bit, and make it seem a bit more spacey.

George, if you're reading, do you have any comments?

Arivald Ha'gel - June 24, 2006 10:47 AM (GMT)
And also it would be nice if we could communicate with other ships, not only if they are in our formation. Like taunting an enemy (especially taunting pirates :D), docking request, distress signal, simple chat messages ("How are you today", "How's patrol?") etc. which can give you some overview of the system :)

Falconer - July 6, 2006 10:11 PM (GMT)
That sounds alot like Privateer. Excellent game by the way, even if it was DOS based.

Arivald Ha'gel - July 7, 2006 05:08 AM (GMT)
:) I played that game too. I was awesome, and many days was spend in that universe. And such a communication would enchance realizm of this game.

Blackpheonix - July 7, 2006 05:58 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Arivald Ha'gel @ Jul 6 2006, 09:08 PM)
And such a communication would enchance realizm of this game.

lol...i'm sorry but "enchance"....makes me think of trying to say enchant and enhance at the same time....but yeah even if it was rather crude it would be kool...it would be even better if they mentioned stations that were in-system....




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