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Pages: (11) « First ... 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... Last » ( Go to first unread post )

 League History & Idols, Opened to discuss past seasons & players
Manzanares
Posted: May 3 2007, 08:51 PM


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I'm really enjoying this thread and wanted to add a little bit about something I know of a few of the players on that 1974 Argentina World Cup team who were with the club I support, Atletico Madrid. Atletico were the Spanish champions in 1973 and after winning the title they acquired three players from Argentina who would go on to have great careers at the club and are legends with Atletico's fans. These players were Ruben Raton Ayala, a forward and defenders Ramon Cacho Heredia and Ruben Panadero Diaz. You've already described how Ayala and Heredia came from San Lorenzo while the older Diaz was from Racing where he had won the Libertadores in the late 60's. That year the club also signed Juan Carlos Lorenzo as coach and with these three Argentinians and stars like Luis Aragones (yes the current Spain coach and probably Atletico's greatest ever player) and Javier Irureta (the ex Deportivo coach) and with goalie Miguel Reina (the father of Liverpool's present goalie Jose Reina) Atletico reached for the only time in their history the European Cup Final in 1974 which they eventually lost to Bayern Munich in a replay after tying 1-1 in the first game. Atletico fans always feel hard done by that as Ayala and Diaz were sent off in the first leg of the semifinal against Celtic and not only missed the return semifinal leg but also the original final and the replayed game! As Ayala was one of the team's main offensive weapons, along with Aragones, Irureta and Garate, Atletico went into those two games against the team that was the base of Germany's World Cup winning team a few months later, in a weakened state. Since Bayern turned down the chance to play Libertadores champions Independiente in that year's Intercontinental Cup, Atletico took their place and after losing 1-0 in Argentina, Atletico won the Cup by beating Independiente 2-0 in Madrid. As a young child I remember that game and the fiesta in the city which followed Atletico's triumph.

Lorenzo eventually left as coach, Aragones retired and took over and with a more offensive outlook, the team again won the Spanish league title in 1976-77 with Ayala, Heredia and Diaz on the team. These three players but especially Ayala have a special place in every Atletico fan's heart.
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rosarino
Posted: May 4 2007, 03:26 PM


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QUOTE (enganche)
While this era of players may not have had quite the talent of the following eras where Argentina made the World Cup Final 3 times between 1978 and 1990, winning it twice, there still was a lot of talent on that 1974 team and as the link says with Sivori as coach they went to Germany in 1973 and beat the future World Champions there 3-2 with goals from Jorge Ghiso, a midfielder from River who didn't make the 1974 team, Miguel Angel Brindisi and Norberto Alonso (a future phenom who also didn't make the 1974 squad).

My recollection, which was confirmed by the article, is that this was an era where Argentina was disorganized at the federation level (well sociologically as well!) and while there was wonderful talent in the country they couldn't reach their potential due to interference from the federation and constant coaching chnages. It wasn't until after the 1974 World Cup when Cesar Luis Menotti was appointed to lead the team for the 78 tournament where the federation finally got it's act together and ever since that time, until Marcelo Bielsa abruptly resigned in the fall of 2004, every Argentina national team coach saw out the end of his contract.


That is one of the aspects I really enjoy about this thread, as you read other posts, your mind gets refreshed about certain facts. Yeah Argentina beating Germany in 1973 when Germany were not only the defending European champions but also were the future World Cup champs was a great result and a sign of how talented that group of players Argentina had back then. But as commented here, the federation's disorganization back then really prevented that team from reaching it's potential.

At least since the run up to 1978 organziationally the federation has done much better and gets the national team set up and are able to maintain coaches.

Thinking back to this period we're talking about and what came after it was a shame neither Ricardo Bochini nor Norberto Alonso had longer national team careers. Internationally there may be many people who don't know them that well but both are true legends with their respective clubs, Independiente and River Plate, and amongst Argentines they are considered some of the country's greatest ever players.

It is nice to read of Manzanares story about how beloved Ayala, Heredia and Diaz were with Atletico Madrid but if you ask Argentines about some of their nation's best players, both Bochini and Alonso will be near the top of the list.
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enganche
Posted: May 5 2007, 10:06 AM


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QUOTE
Thinking back to this period we're talking about and what came after it was a shame neither Ricardo Bochini nor Norberto Alonso had longer national team careers. Internationally there may be many people who don't know them that well but both are true legends with their respective clubs, Independiente and River Plate, and amongst Argentines they are considered some of the country's greatest ever players.


Absolutely right rosarino. Of course I have my favorite which is Bochini. For me he was next to Maradona the most talented player Argentina has produced in modern times, his passing ability was extraordinary, think of a left footed Riquelme but Bocha was a more active and charismatic figure. and although he wasn't a goalscorer, Bochini always seemed to score in big games, and often doing so in spectacular fashion. This link, in Spanish, has a good rundown of his career and talks about some of his great goals, including one I recall very well against Talleres in 1977 when Independiente down to 8 men came from behind and tied their title rivals Talleres thanks to a Bochini goal which clicnhed the Nacional 1977 championship for Independiente.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Enrique_Bochini

For those who can't read Spanish there's also a less detailed entry for Bochini on wikipedia in English. Looking at those wikipedia entries, Bochini had his highest goalscoring statistics in the season (Metropolitano 1974) preceeding the 1974 World Cup.

There also is a website in tribute to Bochini at:

http://www.graciasmaestro.com.ar/

Norberto Alonso was another masterful player. Not quite as skilled or as good a passer in my mind as Bochini but a better goalscorer and quicker. To make a more modern comparison I'd say Alonso was like a left footed Kaka. Here's a brief review of his career (this time the English version is more complete than the Spanish one):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norberto_Alonso

Looking at their trajectory in the period it makes me angry that both Bochini and Alonso, who despite their young age had already played for the national team in 1973, didn't make the 1974 World Cup team. A good coach, which Cap and his co coaches weren't, would have been able to find room for both of them and Babington on that 1974 team.

But both Bochini and Alonso were unlucky throughout their great careers that neither had much of a role with the national team as later in their careers they were overshadowed by Maradona and earlier in the careers, the national coaches preferred other, less talented players. Still both became World Cup champions, Alonso in 1978 and Bochini in 1986 although both times they were reserves on those World Cup winning teams.


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Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
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xeneize
Posted: May 7 2007, 09:22 AM


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QUOTE (enganche)
But both Bochini and Alonso were unlucky throughout their great careers that neither had much of a role with the national team as later in their careers they were overshadowed by Maradona and earlier in the careers, the national coaches preferred other, less talented players. Still both became World Cup champions, Alonso in 1978 and Bochini in 1986 although both times they were reserves on those World Cup winning teams.


No question Bochini and Alonso were great players, I think they didn't have as big a role on the national team because first Menotti preferred playing Mario Kempes as a deep lying forward media punta leading up to and at World Cup 1978. By doing so there wasn't really room in Menotti's eyes for a traditional playmaker and thus a traditional "8" like Osvaldo Ardiles and a defensive midfielder like Americo Gallego were played behind Kempes while two wingers like Bertoni and Ortiz/Houseman were played out wide. Thus in 1978 Alonso was on the World Cup team but primarily was used as a substitute and due to injury he didn't see as much playing time as his talents would have suggested.

And post 1978, Diego Maradona of course was the team's playmaker so again neither Bochini nor Alonso were first choice on the national team. Bochini, who was Maradona's idol, was a sub on the 1986 team as enganche said but only saw action late in the semifinal against Belgium. But as he entered Maradona famously told him, "Go to work maestro!"

But even without much national team play both Bochini and Alonso were fantastic players who won many national and continental titles in their careers. They were two magical players.
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Martin
Posted: May 8 2007, 10:03 AM


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I agree with xeneize that Menotti's preference to play Kempes behind Luque, (and who can argue with his ultimate result?) is what made it difficult for both Bochini and Alonso to find a spot on the 1978 World Cup squad. Alonso did play some minutes in 78 before getting injured but Menotti seemed to prefer Omar Larrosa when he'd use an attacking midfielder.

Going back to 1974 I wanted to ask those who were more familiar with that team than I, why Carlos Bianchi wasn't on Argentina's team for Germany 1974? We now just think of him as the successful coach but Bianchi was a hell of a forward and scored plenty of goals first with Velez then later for several French clubs, where five times he was the league's top scorer (per wikipedia). In fact I looked it up and in the 1973-4 season, Bianchi was the top scorer in France with Reims. Sounds like this was yet another player who Cap & Co. missed out on selecting for Germany 1974.

Here are Bianchi's wikipedia entries for those interested:

Spanish:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Bianchi

English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Bianchi


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dafyd
Posted: May 8 2007, 12:52 PM


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Bianchi was indeed a scoring machine. In League games in Argentina, he scored 206 goals in 324 games. During the Metropolitan championship of 1971, he hit 36 in 36 games.

When he went to France, you might expect that his scoring would fall off a bit, but consider, in 1977/78 season for PSG he scored 37 times, playing 38. For further yearly stats:

http://www.argentinesoccer.com/crbianen.html

Looking at the 1974/75 season, it looks like he may have been injured before the World Cup in 1974. That's only a guess, though. But from the wikipidia link you provided, Martin, it would appear that he only played for the national side 14 times, scoring 7 goals.

So the question isn't just why didn't he play in '74's World Cup, but why, with his goal scoring ability, did he not receive more caps than he did?


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rosarino
Posted: May 8 2007, 01:17 PM


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That is a good question why Bianchi didn't appear more for the national team in the 70's? I know leading up to the 78 World Cup, Menotti was trying to build a team almost exclusively of locally based players so he could achieve a "club like atmosphere" and since Bianchi was in France that may have caused Menotti not to select him. But as for 74, I don't know. dafyd raises a point that if you look at the season directly after the 74 World Cup, the 74-5 year in France, he only played half the games so perhaps he was injured at the end of the 73-4 season or sometime in the summer before Germany 74? We're just guessing here but it would be interesting to find out though. There is no question though that Bianchi was a goalscoring machine and Argentina's national team suffered by the fact he only appeared 14 times.
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xeneize
Posted: May 11 2007, 03:03 PM


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Other than injury the only explanation I could have for Bianchi not making that 1974 World Cup team was he was playing in France then and Cap, coming in as coach, not long before the World Cup began, decided to stick with players he knew. But Bianchi, as the league's top scorer for several years before going to France, should have been a known quantity.

Ultimately it may not have effected the team's performance in Germany in 1974 as Argentina were manhandled by the great Cruyff led Dutch team but an attack with Bianchi, Ayala and Houseman would have been a sight to see.
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enganche
Posted: May 11 2007, 10:25 PM


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QUOTE (xeneize @ May 11 2007, 03:03 PM)
Other than injury the only explanation I could have for Bianchi not making that 1974 World Cup team was he was playing in France then and Cap, coming in as coach, not long before the World Cup began, decided to stick with players he knew.  But Bianchi, as the league's top scorer for several years before going to France, should have been a known quantity.

Ultimately it may not have effected the team's performance in Germany in 1974 as Argentina were manhandled by the great Cruyff led Dutch team but an attack with Bianchi, Ayala and Houseman would have been a sight to see.

This might be true xeneize as the tendency back then was to not use many foreign based players but looking at that 1974 World Cup roster there was Hector Chirola Yazalde, a former Independiente forward who was then playing in Portugal, Ayala and Heredia at Atletico Madrid and the defender Angel Bargas, like Bianchi, playing in France. Yazalde, lke Bianchi, scored a boatload of goals but Bianchi was the better all around player then in my view. I've tried looking it up on the internet but can't find any reasons why Bianchi didn't play in 1974 other than the "out of sight, out of mind" opinion some have expressed here.

But xeneize is right an attack with Houseman, Bianchi and Ayala would have been great to watch. Cap was clueless back then and I did find stories about that 74 team on the net that said Cap was coaching Deportivo Cali at the time and didn't even know which players to call in for that 74 squad! Too bad as there was great talent available and although the Dutch did hammer them 4-0, they only barely lost 2-1 to Brazil and after Juan Peron's death in a meaningless game drew 0-0 with East Germany in the 2nd round. It's all specualtive of course but perhaps with better player selection and tactics Argentina could have made the 3rd place game in Germany 1974 instead of Brazil.

Just for fun this is the team I'd have liked to have seen play then:

GK-Miguel Angel Santoro
RB-Quique Wolff
CB-Roberto Perfumo
CB-Francisco Sa
LB-Jorge Carrascosa
DM-Roberto Telch
MF-Miguel Angel Brindisi
MF-Carlos Babington
RW-Rene Houseman
CF-Carlos Bianchi
LW-Ruben Ayala

Then you could have had Yazalde and Poy as the subs at forward, Alonso, Bochini, Raimondo (Independiente's defensive midfielder not on this 74 World Cup team but should have been) and Chazaretta as midfield reserves and Glaria, Heredia and Bargas as the defensive subs. Carnevali and Fillol as the backup goalies.

Now that could have been a team which would have played some beautiful football. I would have loved to have seen Brindisi and Babington feeding Houseman, Bianchi and Ayala! Maybe a little light defensively in midfield but both Babington and Brindisi were the types who would have helped Telch out when the opponent ahd the ball. Well I enjoyed this trip down memory lane and doing some speculation about what could have been in 1974.


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rosarino
Posted: May 17 2007, 08:42 PM


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I like that team you postulated enganche. It would have been a joy to watch that attack of Houseman, Bianchi and Ayala with Babington in midfield. But for whatever reason we didn't see that attack ever play together and then post 1974, Menotti came in and overhauled the team and ended up getting rid of a lot of players and brought in younger ones to build towards the 1978 World Cup. Interestingly that renovation meant that Bianchi discarded players who had once played for him at Huracan like Babington and Brindisi but then again they were European based and except for Kempes almost all the European based players weren't used by Menotti.
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Sam
Posted: May 19 2007, 03:52 PM


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QUOTE (rosarino @ May 4 2007, 03:26 PM)
It is nice to read of Manzanares story about how beloved Ayala, Heredia and Diaz were with Atletico Madrid but if you ask Argentines about some of their nation's best players, both Bochini and Alonso will be near the top of the list.

Totally. The thing I find brilliant about visiting Argentina, from a 'football traveller' point of view is the depth of footballing history in the country. Argentina is the only country I've visited whose people are as knowledgeable on football as in England. Although Uruguay runs it close!

I find the legends in Argentina, who are unheard of here, fascinating. La Máquina, with Pedernera and Losteau keeping Alfredo Di Stéfano out of the team! The great Racing sides of the first (amateur) titles. The great Independiente sides who won all those Copas Libertadores and made the club the most international-trophy-laden in the world until the bosteros overtook them last year...

I know he's not Argentine, but there's another good example in Enzo Francescoli. I've not met another Englishman who has a clue who he is, yet he insipred the young Zinedine Zidane, and is arguably the greatest figure in the history of one of the world's greatest clubs...

One thing that really confuses me about Argentina, though: why is there not a National Football Museum somewhere in Buenos Aires? I've searched high and low for one, but it doesn't exist!


Sam


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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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xeneize
Posted: May 20 2007, 05:41 AM


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I am happy to read of your interest Sam in Argentina's football history. That is one of the things I enjoy about this thread in particular and this message board in general, we Argentines love to talk football, especially it's history and usually over a coffee or a mate or sometimes something stronger and this place provides me that opportunity to do that via the computer without getting drunk or on a caffeine fix!

I don't know of any national football museum either. That is a European tradition that has not made it's way over yet. Wish there was one now that you mention it.

Enzo Francescoli, even though he was River, was a fantastic player and you couldn't help but admire him. A different type of player but like Norberto Alonso before him, a true technical genius. I guess because he never played real long in Europe, although long enough in Marseille to, as you point out, influence a young Zinedine Zidane, that many Europeans don't know much about him but this thread will be our place to discuss players like he, Pedernera, Moreno, Artime, Bochini, etc.
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Sam
Posted: May 20 2007, 09:46 AM


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QUOTE (xeneize @ May 20 2007, 05:41 AM)
I don't know of any national football museum either. That is a European tradition that has not made it's way over yet. Wish there was one now that you mention it.

There's one in Montevideo, in the Olympic Stand of the Centenario, and very interesting it is too. They've even got their World Cups on display - and the first ever Copa América sitting on a shelf in a corner, totally unguarded and not even behind a sheet of glass!

That being said, Montevideo's a dreadful city to buy football shirts in. I really wanted a Rampla Juniors one, but the only ones on sale ANYWHERE were Peñarol and Nacional. Ask for any other team and they look at you like you're mad. Such a shame...

Sorry to go so off-topic but the point was, if the Uruguayans can have a football museum why can't the AFA?!


Sam


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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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rosarino
Posted: Jul 24 2007, 10:53 AM


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In wake of Argentina's 6th championship at the U-20 World Cup, it is time to revive this thread with something I also posted in the U-20 World Cup discussion in the General Soccer Discussion forum. I thought you might find this interesting, a list of each of Argentina's six U-20 World Cup champions,

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story...=fut&type=story

Japón 1979: Sergio García, Juan Meza, Daniel Sperandio, Abelardo Carabelli, Rubén Rossi, Rafael Seria, Jorge Piaggio, Juan Simón, Osvaldo Rinaldi, Alfredo Torres, Marcelo Bachino, Hugo Alves, Juan Barbas, Osvaldo Escudero, José Lanao, Ramón Díaz, Diego Maradona y Gabriel Calderón. Director técnico: César Luís Menotti.

Qatar 1995: Joaquín Irigoytía, Gastón Pezzuti, Federico Domínguez, Juan Pablo Sorin, Sebastián Pena, Mariano Juan, Guillermo Larrosa, Wálter Coyette, Ariel Ibagaza, Gustavo Lombardi, Leonardo Biagini, Francisco Guerrero, Julio César Bayon, Andrés Garrone, Cristian Díaz, Germán Arangio, Diego Crosa y Cristian Chaparro. Director técnico: José Néstor Pekerman.

Malasia 1997: Leonardo Franco, Leandro Cufré, Walter Samuel, Juan José Serrizuela, Esteban Cambiasso, Diego Markic, Diego Quintana, Juan Román Riquelme, Bernardo Romeo, Pablo Aimar, Pablo Rodríguez, Cristian Muñóz, Fabián Cubero, Diego Placente, Martín Perezlindo, Nicolás Diez, Sebastián Romero y Lionel Scaloni. Director técnico: José Néstor Pekerman.

Argentina 2001: Germán Lux, Nicolás Burdisso, Julio Arca, Mauro Cetto, Nicolás Medina, Fabricio Coloccini, Javier Saviola, Oscar Ahumada, Esteban Herrera, Leandro Romagnoli, Maximiliano Rodríguez, Gerardo Seltzer, Diego Colotto, Leonardo Ponzio, Andrés D'Alessandro, Mauro Rosales, Alejandro Domínguez, Wilfredo Caballero y Sebastián Bueno. Director técnico: José Néstor Pekerman.

Holanda 2005: Oscar Ustari, Gustavo Cabral, Lautaro Formica, Julio Barroso, Juan Manuel Torres, Gabriel Paletta, Lucas Biglia, Pablo Zabaleta, Pablo Vitti, Patricio Pérez, Emiliano Armenteros, Nereo Champagne, Ezequiel Garay, David Abraham, Rodrigo Archubi, Neri Cardozo, Fernando Gago, Lionel Messi, Sergio Agüero, Gustavo Oberman y Nicolás Navarro. Director técnico: Francisco Ferraro.

Canadá 2007: Sergio Romero, Federico Fazio, Emiliano Insúa, Gabriel Mercado, Ever Banega, Matías Cahais, Claudio Yacob, Matías Sánchez, Mauro Zárate, Sergio Agüero, Damián Escudero, Javier García, Germán Voboril, Leonardo Sigali, Alejandro Cabral, Alejandro Gómez, Maximiliano Moralez, Angel Di María, Pablo Piatti, Lautaro Acosta y Bruno Centeno. Director técnico: Hugo Tocalli.


It is an interesting trip down memory lane. That 1979 team of course is fondly remembered for being Diego Maradona's presentation to the world but he wasn't the only player on that team who went on to have a good career, Ramon Diaz, Gabriel Calderon, Juan Simon and Osvaldo Escudero also did well and Simon, like Maradona, became a World Cup champion in 1986. And note that Osvaldo Escudero is the father of Damian Escudero a member of the 2007 winners. I believe that is the first father-son combo to win a World Cup at any age level.

Looking at the 1997 team you see a lot of big name players there, many who'd go on to represent Argentina and some who still do, and others who have good pro careers even if they didn't make it to the international level. The same for the 2001 team which won at home but was where Javier Saviola and Andres D'Alessandro first made their names. The stars from that 2001 team may not have made it as big yet as the 1997 class did but there are plenty of players from this 2001 team who are now excellent professional players.

The 2005 team naturally was Lionel Messi's breakout tournament but others from that team are also off to nice starts to their pro careers too. It will be fun watching how they develop in the coming years, and the same is true for this current championship squad where Sergio Aguero is the "name" player.

What I found interesting is the 1995 champions really only provided one player to the national team, Juan Pablo Sprin. There are several others who have pretty good careers with their clubs, notably Ariel Ibagaza, but the 1995 team was the least star studded of all the champoionshop winning teams from Argentina. Besides Sorin, the stars of that 1995 title winning team were goalkeeper Irigoytia, Coyette and Biagini, three players whose careers could best be described as being "journeymen." Something to consider when debating whether an U-20 star will make the jump up to the next level.
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Martin
Posted: Jul 25 2007, 01:08 PM


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Thanks for providing the squad lists from Argentina's past U-20 champions. I never saw the legendary 1979 team play but I have read reports where many consider it the best youth team ever. Hard to prove of course but the fact it produced one of the two biggest names ever to play the game is a sign of it's strength. Curious how later Maradona and Ramon Diaz became enemies but in 1979, as they were in the 1982 World Cup, they were teammates. rosarino, if I'm not mistaken Juan Simon was on the 1990 World Cup runner up team and not the 1986 championship squad.

I also never got a chance to see the 1997 team play and I knew it had Riquelme, Aimar and Samuel but had forgotten the other star players who also were on that team. That is as productive a star producing team as I have ever heard of at the U-20 level. If I recall corretcly that same U-20 World Cup also had Thierry Henry and David Trezeguet playing for France (or was it Henry and Nicolas Anelka?) Argentina came from behind to defeat Uruguay in the final in 1997.

If the 1997 team was as productive a team in starting off big name players' careers the 1995 team was the opposite. Sorin +10! Ok, Ibagaza has had a good club career but the rest of the players on that team are journeymen as rosarino described. Very interesting that they were able to win the U-20 title.

The 2001 U-20 champions was the best U-20 team I have ever seen. Saviola crushed the single tournament scoring record and he and D'Alessandro lit that tournament up. Those two and Coloccini were the stars of the team and all have gone on to pretty good pro careers and have represented Argentina and still are young enough where they could improve but I did think all 3 of them would become bigger stars than they are now. Leandro Romagnoli was a player, however, from that team who never has really reached the potential he showed back in 2001.

The 2005 team's players are still developing and in Messi they look to have a player who can become a legendary star. But Ustari, Gago, Aguero, Zabaleta and Garay look like players from that team who can go on and have long national team careers. And I also recall Jose Sosa, just transferred from Estudiantes to Bayern Munich, was a late scratch from that team due to injury. Sosa is another player I think can become a national team player.

And with this 2007 team besides Aguero, who else looks like they can become a national team player? Banega looks like a good bet with Fazio, Cahais, DiMaria, Insua and Moralez all with some possibilities too. Should be fun watching how these players develop.


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