InvisionFree gives you all the tools to create a successful discussion community.
InvisionFree - Free Forum Hosting
Welcome to Soccer Futbol Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Name:   Password:


Pages: (42) [1] 2 3 ... Last » ( Go to first unread post )

 Argentina National Team, Post World Cup Discussion
CelesteBlanca10
Posted: Jul 4 2010, 07:39 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 587
Member No.: 66
Joined: 21-June 07



So I'm picking my pieces off the floor slowly, and writing a few words. I'm back in this thread because I feel like you don't want to hang the dirty laundry outside ... this is the place to talk right now .. at least for me, this is the only place I feel like writing in ...

I woke up this morning hoping it was just a nightmare, but it wasn't. I feel worse than 4 years ago, I feel more like in 2002. Because Diego gave us the feeling and hope we can go all the way. The team gave us those hopes playing the first 3 games, and even against Mexico, when they had bad moments, our offensive potency made up for it.

Now comes Germany and Diego says in a press conference "Change?? Changing the structure now will be stupid". How can a coach say something like that in a world cup? When each team is extremely different from the other. He said he learned Germany and was ready for them. Really Diego? Really???

How can he leave Samuel out, when he's perfectly healthy and our best defender? Otamendi had no idea what to do as a right defender, and the first goal was on his watch. He had 2 more like those, but the germans messed those set points up - lucky him. Veron had to play this game - at least part of it. To give some leadership in the game .. to try and give some good passes up to Messi .. something ...
The only "good move" that Diego did last night was switch Maxi and Di Maria's sides. That proved to be a good move since Di Maria was more dangerous from there.

Every person I talked to told me "Ohh . Germany, you guys are screwed". And my answer was "Nahh, what happened to England won't happen to us". Well, our defense last night was a complete joke - the saddest joke i ever heard. Every german attack, our defense was so spread apart it was painful to see.

So friends, all I can say is that Diego's name and influence that name gives is only good for, apparently, quarter finals. If you want to be part of the world's big 4, you need a coach.

We have Copa America in Argentinean soil next summer - lets try not to fuck that up.
Top
Lalo
Posted: Jul 5 2010, 08:05 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 519
Member No.: 174
Joined: 31-December 09



QUOTE
So I'm picking my pieces off the floor slowly, and writing a few words. I'm back in this thread because I feel like you don't want to hang the dirty laundry outside ... this is the place to talk right now .. at least for me, this is the only place I feel like writing in ...


I like your reasoning CelesteBlanca for returning the conversation here. Like you I took my time posting after the match because I did not want to write mientras estaba con bronca.

I think the presence of Maradona and the constellation of stars led many to believe this team could dream of the title. But I think we all realized this was a team with some noticeable weaknesses which Germany exposed.

The president of Argentinos Juniors, who is a high official within AFA says it is up to Maradona to decide if he continues as coach and that he has a contract through next year's Copa America. Last night the team arrived home from South Africa and were greated by 20,000 fans which surprised everyone but shows the public is still behind this team. I have the feeling that sign of support is what Diego needed to convince him to stay on as coach. It is not what I would prefer but is what I expect to occur.

As for the team which played vs Germany, that game showed Maradona's weakness as a coach. His only idea of variety in the game was to have DiMaria and Maxi switch wings. The team played Germany, who use a 5 man midfield, using just 3 midfielders, only one of whom (Mascherano) is a true midfielders. The other two, Maxi and DiMaria are wingers who were not going to help out much defensively while offensively they are runners, not creators so with only Mascherano around, who was going to supply the passes for the wingers and 3 attackers in front of them?

As discussed here, leaving Samuel out when healthy, because he was going to reamin with the guys who beat Mexico, is just blind loyalty that made zero tactical sense.

I do not know if Argentina with the roster they brought to this Mundial could have beaten Germany but they sure could have made the game much more competitive with some different lineup decisions, such as playing Samuel, using Burdisso at right back, maybe using Clemente Rodriguez as an overlapping fullback on the left, playing Veron in midfield to help Mascherano out centrally and who also provide someone who could help supply the ball to he attackers.

Instead Maradona stuck with "his guys who beat Mexico" as if playing Germany would require the same methods as playing Mexico. As a result, for the fifth consecutive World Cup Argentina can not advance beyond the quarterfinal stage.
Top
CelesteBlanca10
Posted: Jul 5 2010, 11:29 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 587
Member No.: 66
Joined: 21-June 07



I don't know if the fact that those 20,000 people came to greet them and the fact that Tevez, Messi and Bolatti came "in the name of the players" to ask Diego to stay are related or not. Its hard to know if the players are blinded enough from Diego's name to be able to see the big picture, or they really want him to stay.

One thing is very clear - he's not a coach, he doesn't know which players to pick, and he doesn't know how to change a schema based on the opponent he has. The fact that the german coach knew which side to attack us was said by someone "a genious move" - no, it was a coach thinking as a coach, that's all.

If he continues, like some want him too (I guess just not to deal with finding a new coach now which opens a huge can of worms), we'll end up humiliated again on our own soil this time - because with his tactic and his zero ideas on how to change our way of defending, Brasil will eat us alive w/out salt.

I want to say "Julio Grondona, if you care about out NT, do something about it" but I find myself telling this to someone who first and foremost cares about himself.

No optimism on my side right now.
Top
rosarino
Posted: Jul 5 2010, 11:37 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,364
Member No.: 5
Joined: 12-January 07



I understand your pessimism CelesteBlanca. Remember in 2002 Grondona kept Bielsa on and it was only after winning the 2004 Olympics, and thereby getting some redemption, that Bielsa decided to walk away.

Gerardo Martino is leaving Paraguay, his paraguayan team was a little conservative in this World Cup without cabanas, but he had paraguay in qualifying playing offensive football. Argentina could do a lot worse, and currently are, than they would with Tato Martino as coach.
Top
enganche
Posted: Jul 5 2010, 04:11 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,808
Member No.: 4
Joined: 12-January 07



I have a couple of things to get off my chest that I have been wanting to say for some time but resisted typing here.

First of all, as great as Messi is with Barcelona, he and Tevez do not fit into Argentina's team together. One or the other has to play not both for 90 minutes. Frankly Argentina have played better when they have played without Lionel Messi. Friendly wins may not mean everything but Argentina beat both France and Germany, and looked good doing it, without Messi (and also played well vs a weak Canada w/o La Pulga.)

With Argentina, Messi just puts his head down and tries to do too much on his own. This Germany loss was just the latest example of that, Messi tried beating 2, 3 or at times even 4 defenders instead of looking to pass the ball. With Barcelona he dribbles too but seems to me is much more willing to pass the ball than he is with the albiceleste. So without Messi I think Argentina plays a more collective game and one where the ball moves more quickly. That is how they were successful in defeating both France and Germany.

Having said all of that I know Messi will not be dropped from the team. But he WAS misused in this tournament by Argentina. Maxi Rodriguez did not play badly against Germany and really acted as another central midfielder but he is not a passer, more as Lalo wrote, a runner and finisher, as is DiMaria. So Messi had nobody to supply the ball to he, Tevez and Higuain, which forced Messi and Tevez to drop too deep to get the ball. At Barcelona, Messi gets the ball often in the final 1/3 of the field, wth Argentina, especally in this last game vs Germany he got the ball at midfield and had too far to run to get into dangerous positions. The problem is other than Veron, who is more of a long passer than short one anyway, there were not any passing midfielders on this team. A major fault of Maradona's in constructing it. Players like Cambiasso, Banega and Lucho Gonzalez could have been very useful on this team and would have I think made things much easier for players like Messi and Tevez. But they were not in South Africa, Veron was but mystifingly was not used.

Grondona apparently is going to leave it to Maradona to decide whether he stays or goes. We knew this would be a fun journey but end somehow like this, it always does with Diego, a walking circus if ever there was one. It makes for good media coverage but is no way to have a coach of your national team act.

Finally let us realize Argentina is no more than a quarterfinal team. It has in my view dropped from the world's elite. How can you say anything besides that when Argentina has not advanced past the quarterfinals of a World Cup since 1990 and not even won a Copa America since 1993. In that period besides Brazil winning numerous Copa Americas, Uruguay and Colombia have won the South American title since Argentina last were champions. This next Copa America will be on home soil, Argentina needs to make it a priority that it wins that title in order to rebuild its confidence that it can win a World Cup.


--------------------
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
Top
CelesteBlanca10
Posted: Jul 5 2010, 08:23 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 587
Member No.: 66
Joined: 21-June 07



QUOTE (enganche @ Jul 5 2010, 04:11 PM)
Finally let us realize Argentina is no more than a quarterfinal team. It has in my view dropped from the world's elite. How can you say anything besides that when Argentina has not advanced past the quarterfinals of a World Cup since 1990 and not even won a Copa America since 1993. In that period besides Brazil winning numerous Copa Americas, Uruguay and Colombia have won the South American title since Argentina last were champions. This next Copa America will be on home soil, Argentina needs to make it a priority that it wins that title in order to rebuild its confidence that it can win a World Cup.

The problem keeps being the bad defensive play this team has. We have the best group of offensive players in the world, better than the Germans, better than the Brazilians - not talking about a specific name, but just take a look at the 6 forwards Diego brought to South Africa - no one has that arsenal.

But also take a look at how these teams defend - the whole midfield shrinks to fill in the gaps between the defenders, forming a wall not letting anyone in. Where were we?? Messi, Tevez and Higuain were around midfield almost walking, DiMaria, Maxi and Masche running their hearts out a little behind and the 4 full backs 10 meters behind separated one from the other like just before the first whistle blows to start the game. So easy to break such a defense.

Enganche, its hard to argue with the hard facing facts - we didn't win anything for quite some time now. But as I see it, its all about the coach. 4 years ago, I have no idea how we didn't win it all, with the players we had. Maybe we got unlucky, not being able to take out a much weaker Germany and missing those 2 penalty kicks.

If we had a normal coach, someone that knows about tactics and schemas, and understand the basic principle that a coach is not a player with a suit , then probably we would've seen Cambiasso, Zanetti and even Lucho and Aimar in South Africa, and ready for teams like Germany.

If only Grondona would see it that way ... if not, then yes, we'll be a quarter final team for a while ...
Top
ursus arctos
Posted: Jul 6 2010, 08:38 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,743
Member No.: 135
Joined: 4-November 08



While I understand Enganche's despair, I think that CelesteBlanca's post is more reflective of the actual situation.

It may be useful in this respect to compare Argentina and England, who are to me much more deserving of the "perpetual quarter-finalist" (aka go out to the first decent team they face) tag, and who don't have anything like Argentina's reserves of excellent young players.

I would love to know how Schweinsteiger, Mueller and Lahm would compare their Champions League final against Zanetti, Cambiasso and Samuel to the match they played over the weekend.
Top
CelesteBlanca10
Posted: Jul 6 2010, 10:06 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 587
Member No.: 66
Joined: 21-June 07



And this is why i'm so sick .. and disgusted .. the national team, la Celeste y Blanca, that I have so deep in my heart, has a guy at its very top of the hierarchy saying statements like:

“A mí no me saca nadie de la FIFA hasta que me muera” .. and ...
“Maradona es la única persona del país que puede hacer lo que quiera”.

Who appointed him as Vice President of the FIFA??

YUCKK!!!! sad.gif angry.gif
Top
ursus arctos
Posted: Jul 6 2010, 10:15 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,743
Member No.: 135
Joined: 4-November 08



Joao Havelange.

And if it was in fact a Brazilian plot to saddle their eternal rivals with one of the world's most incompetent football administrators, it worked better than they could ever have hoped . . .
Top
Lalo
Posted: Jul 6 2010, 02:34 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 519
Member No.: 174
Joined: 31-December 09



QUOTE (ursus arctos @ Jul 6 2010, 03:15 PM)
Joao Havelange.

And if it was in fact a Brazilian plot to saddle their eternal rivals with one of the world's most incompetent football administrators, it worked better than they could ever have hoped . . .

biggrin.gif

Very well said!

Grondona and his cronies need to get out of AFA but there have institutionalised their power and will not leave, just as the quote CelesteBlanca provided above indicates,

“A mí no me saca nadie de la FIFA hasta que me muera (Nobody will take me out of FIFA until i die)

Unfortunately that same attitude applies to his stay within AFA.

This autocratic power from Grondona is why coaches like Bielsa left, why Bianchi has always resisted taking the Argentina job. There are plenty of good Argentine coaches around, there were two excellent ones leading Chile and Paraguay in this World Cup but it really was a waste entrusting this talented group of players to satisfy Maradona's ego trip of coaching the World Cup team.

enganche, your theory is one which has been a theme which below the radar has been discussed within Argentina. In fact some co workers and I had that very discussion yesterday. There may be something to the thought the team becomes too Messi dependent when he is on the field and that they play more collectively without him. But we all know the world's best player will be on the team when healthy. So the best way to accomodate him is to build a team which will enable him(Messi) to best exploit his talents for the team's overall good. And that I think means employing players in midfield who can provide him with the ball closer to goal, players like Banega, Lucho Gonzalez, perhaps Aimar and D'Alessandro.
Top
rosarino
Posted: Jul 8 2010, 08:18 AM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,364
Member No.: 5
Joined: 12-January 07



QUOTE
There may be something to the thought the team becomes too Messi dependent when he is on the field and that they play more collectively without him. But we all know the world's best player will be on the team when healthy. So the best way to accomodate him is to build a team which will enable him(Messi) to best exploit his talents for the team's overall good. And that I think means employing players in midfield who can provide him with the ball closer to goal, players like Banega, Lucho Gonzalez, perhaps Aimar and D'Alessandro.


And that is for me the key point here, putting your star player in a position where he can most help the team win. That is the sign of a good coach, something Diego Maradona obviously is not. We all were hoping the month training together would enable Maradona to find the right way to use Messi and get the team playing as a unit. But that never really happened and we saw Argentina revert to playing like a group of individuals.

But the great absence was in not having somebody to provide passes to Messi and the other forwards. What was Maradona thinking here? And it was not just missing a midfielder like Banega or Lucho Gonzalez but also in not having overlapping fullbacks who could help out the attack. Look at Spain, Ramos and Capdevila are often attacking and helping support the attack, but using central defenders as fullbacks, as Argentina did in South Africa prevents this from happening.
Top
CelesteBlanca10
Posted: Jul 8 2010, 12:09 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 587
Member No.: 66
Joined: 21-June 07



QUOTE (rosarino @ Jul 8 2010, 08:18 AM)
And it was not just missing a midfielder like Banega or Lucho Gonzalez but also in not having overlapping fullbacks who could help out the attack. Look at Spain, Ramos and Capdevila are often attacking and helping support the attack, but using central defenders as fullbacks, as Argentina did in South Africa prevents this from happening.

Yup, every team that respects itself has those kind of players .. players like Dani Alves and Maicon ...
We have them too .. Zanetti, Zabaleta, Insua ... too bad Diego didn't think of using them ...
Top
enganche
Posted: Jul 9 2010, 02:44 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,808
Member No.: 4
Joined: 12-January 07



QUOTE (CelesteBlanca10 @ Jul 8 2010, 12:09 PM)
QUOTE (rosarino @ Jul 8 2010, 08:18 AM)
And it was not just missing a midfielder like Banega or Lucho Gonzalez but also in not having overlapping fullbacks who could help out the attack.  Look at Spain, Ramos and Capdevila are often attacking and helping support the attack, but using central defenders as fullbacks, as Argentina did in South Africa prevents this from happening.

Yup, every team that respects itself has those kind of players .. players like Dani Alves and Maicon ...
We have them too .. Zanetti, Zabaleta, Insua ... too bad Diego didn't think of using them ...

he at least took Clemente Rodriguez to the World Cup but then only use dhim once, in the reserve filled game against Greece. Clemente played well in that match and wasa threat on the flanks but he was quickly shoved aside for stay at home defenders who were much slower than he.

I heard some radio reports, not entirely sure of their accuracy, that the Kirchner government is pressing AFA to retain Maradona as the D.T. (national coach) at least through next year's Copa America. The government wants to capitalize in an election year on Maradona's popularity and also has reminded AFA how it's public TV channels are the ones which have pumped so much money into televising Argentinian futbol


--------------------
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
Top
enganche
Posted: Jul 11 2010, 07:24 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,808
Member No.: 4
Joined: 12-January 07



I take nothing away from Spain but I could not help think if Argentina had a real coach and used this starting team:

------------------Milito-----------------
-----------Tevez--------Messi---------
Cambiasso--Mascherano--Lucho Gonzalez
Clemente--Samuel--Burdisso--Zanetti
-----------------Romero----------------

It could have been the Albiceleste up on the podium celebrating a world championship. This is an incredibly talented group of players but AFA wasted an opportunity by hiring a chearleader not a head coach!


--------------------
Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arrodillado
Top
Lalo
Posted: Jul 11 2010, 08:02 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 519
Member No.: 174
Joined: 31-December 09



The same conversation came up among those I watched the game with too! This was a lost opportunity for Argentina. Inter Milan won the Champions League with 4 Argentinian starters, each a major contributor to their club title, but only two of them made Argentina's World Cup squad and none of them were on the field when Argentina were eliminated by Germany!

Sad, very sad.
Top
« Next Oldest | Argentina | Next Newest »
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you

Topic OptionsPages: (42) [1] 2 3 ... Last »



Hosted for free by InvisionFree* (Terms of Use: Updated 2/10/2010) | Powered by Invision Power Board v1.3 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.
Page creation time: 0.1506 seconds | Archive