History Thread, Great clubs, national teams, players

In the Argentina forum there is a thread I really enjoy called "League History" where there is a discussion of some of the great clubs, national teams and players from that nation's glorious past. If you are interested in the history of the game I suggest taking a look at it.

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Soccer_Futbol_F...hp?showtopic=92

I found an interesting article on Ajax's 1972 team on soccernet.com which prompted me to start a similar history thread about teams and players from around the world which have caught our attention over the years.

Soccernet Article On Ajax 1972

Apart from the fact that I am extremely jelaous that those in Europe who get ESPN Classic get the chance to see some of the great soccer matches from the past (here in the US the channel primarily shows football, basketball, baseball and boxing from the past) the author describes how wonderfully that Ajax team played. Look at the lineup for that 1972 Champions Cup Final against Inter and you'll see some big name players on both teams,

Suurbier, Krol, Neeskens, Haan and Cruyff all started on Holland's memorable 1974 World Cup team. Barry Hulshoff probably would have been on that team too but was hurt and Piet Keizer, an elegant winger was getting a little old by 1974 and wasn't selected, but in 1972 was still going strong and I've read many Dutch fans consider him one of the country's best ever players. Neeskens of course was one of the great midfielders of his time and what can you say about Cruyff one of the game's all time greats? Johnny Rep who would eventually take Kiezer's national team, and club place was a young reserve on that team as was Arnold Muhren a midfielder who later made a name for himself with Ipswich Town's UEFA Cup winners in thr early 80's.

Inter were a fine team too with several players, notably Mazzola and Facchetti who are legendary in their country plus those two and Burgnich and Boninsegna were on Italy's 1970 World Cup runners up team. But from the linked author's description that team had no answers for Ajax's flowing play.

Ajax won the European Cup 3 years in a row from 1971-73 but this 1972 may have been their best team of the three title winners and that year in the Intercontinetal Cup they defeated Independiente of Argentina who were dominating South American competitions like Ajax were doing in Europe. The teams drew 1-1 in Argentina before Ajax beat Independiente 3-0 in Holland for a comprehensive win over a very good team. Certainly this Ajax team deserves mention as one of the greatest club teams of all time.

I have a vague early recollection as a boy of those Ajax teams in the early 70's. Mainly because I recall my father and uncles marvelling at the play of Cruyff and calling him the closest thing they'd seen to DiStefano. Of course Ajax's reign as European champions ended when Cruyff and Neeskens left for Barcelona, ironically where both remain, Cruyff as a resident of the city and unofficial adviser to the club and Neeskens as Rijkaard's assistant.

I later saw some films of those Ajax teams when my understanding of the game was more developed and their centerback Hulshoff was quite a player. Imagine a guy built like Alex the former PSV defender now at Chelsea but who liked to move forward like Lucio does. The movement and passing ability of that Ajax team was a real joy.

Cruyff was the undoubted star of that team but far from the club's only good player. I agree that Ajax team, especially with their 3 straight European titles has to be considered one of the all time great clubs.

Good idea for a thread. Thanks for starting it.

Dominating the scene in your league, winning multiple times in your continent's premier club competition and winning the inter continental cup makes me think that Ajax team deserves praise as one of history's better clubs. Then you add in the fact they had one of the game's true greats in Cruyff on the team and this Ajax has to be one of the real great clubs of all time.

That is a good point Sergio. And as Martin wrote a base of that Ajax team went on to star for Holland in the 1974 World Cup where their play delighted the world and led them to a 2nd place finish. You know since the 1970 World Cup every World Cup Final has involved two of Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France or Germany? Well except for Holland making the finals and finishing 2nd to the host team in both 1974 and 1978. The Dutch's ability to break up the dominance of the Big Five with a nucleus from this Ajax team is a further sign of the grandest of this Ajax team from the early 70's.

Is grandest a word in English? I'm thinking of the translation of the Spanish word grandeza into English.

Pique, grandeza=greatness.

Ajax had a wonderful team then but I wish they had played Independiente in 1973 in the Intercontinental Cup but they declined to take part. Although Ajax defeated Independiente in the 1972 final 4-1 on aggregate, that 1972 team from Independiente wasn't as good as the 1973 Copa Libertadores champions as Ricardo Bochini and Daniel Bertoni were just breaking into Independiente's team in 1972 and were bit players. By 1973 however both Bochini and Bertoni were starters and the focal points of Independiente's title winning teams. In 1973 only one Intercontinental Cup game was played and it was in Roma against European runner up Juventus, filling in for AWOL Ajax, and Ricardo Bochini scored the game winning goal, one which Independiente fans still talk about.

It would have been wonderful to have seen Cruyff and company against Bochini and Bertoni. For those who don't know Bochini was Independiente's playmaker, a brilliant skilled player who Diego Maradona said was his childhood idol. Curiously it was Maradona's presence which prevented Bochini from playing often at the international level but Bochini was a true magician, one of the greatest players ever from Argentina, and a key reason why Independiente won so many Libertadores' titles in the 70's and 80's. Daniel Bertoni was a quick winger who formed a great partnership with Bochini and their combinations ripped open so many defenses. Bertoni was a starter on Argentina's 1978 World Cup winning team.

Independiente won the Copa Libertadores 4 years in a row from 1972-75 and again in 1984 but it was the 1973 team which I think was the club's best ever team and one which deserves to be rated as one of history's best ever clubs every bit as much as Ajax does.

In the 1966-67 European Cup, the great Ajax played Liverpool in Holland and won 5-1, including a goal from a young Johan Cruyff. We were taught a lesson right there and then. In the returning game, Ajax drew 2-2 with Liverpool, both goals scored by Cruyff. Just something I know, nothing much, but, something significant.

When I was young everyone admired Johan Cruyff and we'd all run out to the street or neighboring park and try to imitate his moves. As a Real Madrid fan though I was really disappointed when he signed with Barcelona. Interestingly Cruyff only won one league title as a player at Barcelona and that was in the 1973-4 season. The following year Johan Neeskens joined him at Barcelona but they never won another legaue title with the club. But one of Cruyff's greatest moments for the club was in early 1974 against Real Madrid where he led Barcelona to a historic 5-0 victory at the Bernabeu. Here is a YouTube tribute to his play in that game. As a Madrid fan it hurts to see but as a lover of the beautiful game you can't help but admire Cruyff's greatness,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gatVMdXWAI

This You Tube tribute is long (over 4 minutes but is worth seeing if you have the opportunity.)

That is a great clip Pepe and gives you a feel of the game. It isn't just highlights of goals. Check that video out and you'll see Cruyff was a player who covered the entire pitch, coming back deep to defend and win the ball off an opponent, or dropping back to receive a throw from his goalie or a pass from a defender to start a Barcelona attack. And then there is Cruyff's great vision and ability to put a pass exactly where he wanted to. What a great player. Thank you very much for providing that highlight video.

Here is a question for those on the board older than I am:

How far back do you have to go for soccer to "look" different?

Maybe that question can't be answered, maybe it is my perception as much as anything else.

But when I watch that clip, and even older clips, the game still looks the same.

When I watch clips of college football and professional football, the games from that time frame seem to look different---the style of play, the look of the players, their movments, and such. Some baseball clips and most basketball clips are the same way. Because of rule changes, basketball really looks different back then.

Maybe it is more my perception than anyting else, but the play in that clip looks almost exactly like the play you'd see on the field today.

In my opinion, European Football and South American Football were way ahead of English Football in terms of skill and development. I reckon it was the introduction of foreign players in to the Football League that made English Football more skillful and classy. Players like Ricky Villa who scored that wonderful goal for Tottenham in the FA Cup Final Replay of 1981 and more in to the 1990's players like Fabrio Asprilla, David Ginola and Eric Cantona.

Pepe, that's a great video thanks for providing it.

TCK, I agree to a certain extent that it's always good to introduce different playing styles and philosophies as this naturally enriches a league and gives it more variety. But not sure there's been a time when English football was 'way behind' as you suggest. Remember that there's always been a wealth of skilful and classy British players in any era. Of course, England's finest period in the European game came with the record six-year dominance of the European Cup in the late 70s and early 80s and that was before the influx of foreign players.

Gremlin, I know what you mean. I suppose it's been a gradual process rather than something that happened overnight. The oft-replayed 1960 European Cup Final, for example, remains fascinating but really watching it now is almost like watching a different sport! The most immediate thing that strikes you is the far slower pace of the game. I don't think there's a specific point in time at which the game suddenly looks like the sport we watch today.

My father and uncle used to see news reel clips of Alfredo DiStefano and what they told me about him, and the few highlights I've subsequently seen, remind me a bit of the way we see Cruyff playing in this excellent highlight video Pepe provided. Covering the entire field, spraying passes around, one minute winning the ball in his own defnesive end, the next minute up in attack. That is a truly complete footballer. I'd always heard DiStefano was a player whose style was way before his time but i think the same must also be said for Cruyff. Even now how many players do we see like him now? The closest may be the two way midfielders we now see but both Cruyff and Di Stefano were withdrawn forwards.

Gremlin does bring up a really interesting topic though. Funny watching that Cruyff highlight reel and any game up through World Cup 1990 and you'll see backpasses to the goalie picked up. I honestly think the rule change banning that has really helped the game. But for the overall style of the game, I agree with Simon when you see something like the 1960 European Cup Final or I'd even say as far forward as the 1970 World Cup, you see players with so much more time on the ball as the opposition were much less likely to try and close them down back then. Plus as Simon writes the speed of play was much slower then. I think in the early 70's, and certainly by the 1974 World Cup you see the game played much more closely to how it looks today, including the speed of play and the defensive strategies. I'm curious as to what other posters think of this question.

ESPN Classics Canada used to show old FA Cup finals and anything from even the late 70s and earlier really looked dated IMO. I've seen internationals older than that and it isn't the same however.

I've seen football games from the early 50s and it's like a different sport altogether.

At least I have the sense that in most ways soccer is advancing. It's better. The players are faster, the game more urgent. Obviously things like simulation and negative play are a growing problem, but I think the players are largely better.

Watching the 87 Canada Cup or the 72 Summit Series and you can see just how far hockey has slipped in recent years. There's still players of great skill, but the willingness to attack and — in the case of that 72 Soviet team — the concept of team play has eroded.

Thanks for the Cruyff video.

cheers,
hobbes

I think before 1975 or so, soccer looked very different--not the play on the pitch necessarily, but the commercial aspect of the sport. Back then, you had no shirt advertising, much fewer billboards inside the stadiums, and so on. The atmosphere was much more about the game rather than the sell.

For all the talk of diving and embellishing I think the sport is a lot less violent now than it was in the 1970's and 1980's when I first began watching the sport. Players like Claudio Gentile, Nobby Stiles, Romeo Benetti or Andoni Goicochea would have a hard time now staying on the field for 90 minutes without being red carded.