Book Club: The Bible, Week 1: Women and the Bible

As requested, I'm starting a thread on the Bible. I found a website (biblegateway.com) that has about twenty different versions of the Bible in English. I’m going with the NIV because that’s the website’s default. I know that some translations are controversial, but I don’t know which ones or why. If anyone has a different preference, please let me know.

I'm kind of going to start off the way I might in a book club. Quote some excerpts and then pose some questions for discussion. And then watch as the discussion to veers off into all sorts of unexpected and interesting paths. :laugh:

Here are a number of Bible verses about women:

Exodus 21:7:

1 Corinthians 11:3:

1 Corinthians 14:33:

Ephesians 5:22:

1 Timothy 2:9:

Anybody who has read Clay’s book knows that he doesn’t agree with any of this. He thinks women should be allowed to be ministers and he likes independent and opinionated women.

Discussion Questions:

1. How many Christians (and Jews for the O.T. verse) think that these verses are what God believes?

2. How many of those who think God believes this also agree and comply?

3. How many of those who think God believes this resent him for it or question the morality of it or refuse to comply?

4. For those who don’t think that God believes this, why not?

5. For those who don’t think that God believes this, but believe other parts of the Bible, how do you decide which parts of the Bible to believe and follow and which parts not to believe or follow?

6. Any other questions, thoughts, or comments?

Solitare, great posts and questions!

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I've got to go to work, but will think about this all day. Haven't seen anything from LoveClay recently...she'd like this discussion. :rfc:

I believe that there is much wisdom in the Bible (although not in any of the verses quoted in the post above!), but I do not believe they are words or concepts directly from God. They come from the minds and hearts of humans who used resources available to them at the time to create structure in their society and explain the mysteries of life. It is unfortunate that we have seen throughout history, as noted in these verses, that some humans choose to subjugate groups of people in order to establish structure in society. However, I feel that we have grown as a species, and can conquer this element of being human...if we so choose.

I also believe there is great wisdom found in many faiths and philosophy and cultures throughout the world....and that we have yet to discover and implement new wisdom into our lives.

I can believe there is wisdom in the Bible without believing that it came directly from God.

How do I choose what to follow? The bellweather for me is: does this action/idea/thought/concept/behavior benefit the greater good?


I am grateful for having a forum to be able to discuss these ideas with civility and openess.

:iheartRFC:

1. How many Christians (and Jews for the O.T. verse) think that these verses are what God believes?

I think many Christians who take the Bible as God's literal word would agree with all of these verses and try to live by them. It's funny, I googled "Feminism and the Bible" and all kinds of fundamentalist sites popped up decrying feminism and condemning any feminist criticism of God's word. Kind of scary. Most mainline Christian churches take the Bible as truth wrapped in allegory; not to be taken literally but to teach important lessons.

I personally believe that human beings wrote the Bible and are subject to the ideas and prejudices of their time. That Timothy one smacks of somebody on a power trip in the early church. Paul said that in Jesus there is no Jew or Gentile, all people equal, and that must've scared someone, like the author of these passages! Women having a say over me--how dare they?? :rolleyes:

I have been teaching myself to read Hebrew and read parts of the first chapters of Genesis in my workbooks. It's funny, it doesn't seem all that awful to me in the stark language of the original when God creates Eve out of Adam's rib. It's actually kind of touching, how God is sorry that man is alone and that he needs a companion, and how pleased the man is when God brings the woman to him. "This one at last is bone of my bone..." It's also worth noting that there are two versions of the creation of woman in Genesis, one where God creates "male and female, he created them," and the other where He takes Adam's rib. I wonder how fundamentalists reconcile it when there are a couple different versions of things, which happens a lot in the New Testament.

I think those ancient men were scared of women, in a way. When birth control was totally unreliable, and there was no DNA testing, men had no way of knowing that the children they were supporting were really theirs. Keeping a tight leash physically and psychologically would reassure them. It must have scared them that women had this awesome power to give birth. Also, men think with their genitals a lot more than women do; women I think are more calculating about who they care to mate with. This has to be somewhat confusing for men, too. Kind of disconnected thoughts and not what Solitaire threw out there--sorry!

Thank you, Solitaire, for starting this!!

That’s a nice philosophy. One way of saying “love your neighbour?”

So far, everyone here has said that they think that men wrote the Bible. (Okay, Marianne said “human beings,” but I know she’s not thinking “women.” :laugh: ) But, if someone really does believe that the Bible is the word of God, then how do they pick and choose what to believe (and everyone does pick and choose)?

Really? Wow. What a bummer. Even the Catholic Church allows women to sing and speak in church even though they can’t play much of a role beyond that. A lot of Sunday School teachers are women, too.

I just find it so hard to understand why people who are subjugated according to biblical verses would accept them and worship the God who supposedly established these rules.

But, don’t some of them take the passages they like the most as being literal?

I’ve wondered that myself. There are also conflicts between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Maybe we can make this a topic later this month.

Heh. Maybe that’s why, according to Jewish law, a child’s religion is determined by the mother.

Wow. That’s impressive.

Maybe women in fundamentalist churches have a role, like Sunday School teacher or even a co-preacher (like Tammy Faye Bakker), if men "allow" them to. You could interpret those verses that way, that as long as women are submissive to what men want. If men say OK, then you're allowed.

The Catholic church does relegate women to helping roles; they can preach and distribute communion and teach, but they cannot be ordained even as deacons. It's such a waste because women are the lifeblood of the Church. If they had to leave there'd be no one left in the congregation most Sundays.

:D Of course! The passages about Jesus' brothers and sisters get passed right over to account for Mary's perpetual virginity. That pesky little bit about only God being able to dissolve marriage doesn't fly well, either. :rolleyes:

I'm neither really but I'm not that easy to shut up. :) My uneducated guess is that these were the opinions of those writing the bible. No different than any newspaper article you see today. And today the story being reported just happened yet they still completely twist the facts, if they even get the facts right at all. Writing them years later, a lot easier to write to suit your own purposes.

I'd love to hear the answer to that from someone like Aunt Diane or her minister. The type that takes certain passages so much to heart, but not others. I think its a safe assumption they don't take all passages equally.

Interesting. Not just in ancient times and I don't think it only has to do with child bearing, although I'm not discounting that being the main issue behind it. They don't understand us. Lack of understanding can create fear or insecurity. One way to address this is to quash it before it poses any threat.

I've often wondered what started sexism. The bible clearly helped carve it in stone, but why did it start to begin with. Since I don't believe sexism comes from God (well I don't believe in god - I don't think - still haven't completely shaken the childhood brainwashing) what originated it. Any other theories in addition to the child bearing one. Oh, to add to the don't know if its my kid, given the lack of medical knowledge, there may have been some awe involved, some fear of some unknown power possessed only by woman to create human life. Bizarre question (ignorance will do that), but did they even know the role sperm played? I'm thinking yes but how would they, since to my knowledge microscopes did not exist.

Oh my, I wouldn't want to dishonour my head. :) Sorry but that just struck me as funny. Who says the Catholic church isn't progressive. They got rid of this rule a few decades ago (that was sarcasm). I still remember, men entering the church, removing their hats - hat hooks in the pews for them - and the older women all wearing these god awful (choice of words unintentional but made me think - where did that expression come from) flowered hats.

I was quite pleased to read that he left his church and returned pretty much solely for the need for the feeling of community. The pleased part is that it shows he is much more progressive thinking than my impression of the Baptist church, and more importantly, that he isn't just accepting things blindly but thinking it through for himself.

This post has been edited by Clayphoria on May 7 2005, 08:01 PM

Yeah except that Timothy says “do not permit a woman to teach.”

Heh. I didn’t realize that Mary was considered a perpetual virgin. I do think it’s interesting that Jesus’s own brothers didn’t believe him.

I think that many people will subjugate others if they have a chance because it gives the subjugators more power. IMO, men were able to do this for centuries because they were more physically powerful and until more modern times physical power was incredibly important. A man can keep a woman “in line” with physical power, too. This helped establish sexist cultural norms and culture is very powerful. In some African cultures, you still see extreme sexism resulting from a desire to allow men to have fun and power and to blame women and keep them in their place. The Zulus still do virginity “testing” on women. The Xhosas do not have that tradition, but their tribal leaders just announced that they are going to start doing it in order to try to stop the spread of AIDS. The only problem with that is that the men are much, much more promiscuous than the women (and it’s culturally approved) and a huge percentage of women in southern Africa are getting HIV from their husbands. If they want testing to stop the spread of AIDS, then test everyone, especially the men, for HIV. (And stop making sex part of the initiation process for young men.) Right now, you don’t have to get tested to get married. But, I think women are slowly starting to feel a little more powerful and in control of their own bodies. Slowly. And education is a key part of that.

Yeah. I was pleased to see that, too. I wonder how broadly he’s thinking, though. Mostly just within a narrow southern Protestant range I would think. When Clay’s brother joined the Marines after the beginning of the war in Iraq, I found myself wondering what Clay’s views were on that. The Moravian Church publicly opposed it, but I wonder how many people that Clay knows in North Carolina questioned it or could even conceive of questioning it. I wonder how much he thinks about the religious issues that don’t impact his life, though. I get the sense that Clay’s religion for him is very much where he draws strength and comfort in his personal life. He refers to religion in those contexts. I don’t see him referring to it quite as much in other contexts. His choice of favorite Bible verse could keep an armchair psychologist busy for months. I've really wondered how much thought he's given to the context of that quote.

I never even paid attention when this was discussed - I don't even recall what it is - that can be another discussion.

re the CB thread - even if they didn't listen - you're still my hero.

The CB thread is a good example of why Clays book pleased me. Even if he only questions some aspects or small aspects, it is still questionning - which some of our "friends" at the CB don't seem to do - just blindly accept what they were brought up with. Now if some read this they'd attack me for trying to change their beliefs, would miss the point altogether, which is why I rarely go there anymore. Too dang frustrating.

Yes. Education AND testing AND condoms AND antiretroviral therapy to prevent mother-infant transmission and reduce the rate sexual transmission, AND an affordable vaccine if ever there is one that works. These are all things that money can buy for people who don’t have it. These are things that we Americans buy for ourselves every day. Tribal practices apart, I think that anti-HIV drug therapy would be welcomed by many African men (and therefore women) if it was actually available. That's the slow part.

I honestly don’t think I will ever be able to read the bible. From the “snippets” posted so far, my only reactions are (1). This book must be really old, (2). I’m surprised it ever got beyond its third printing, and (3). I must buy a copy immediately - this book is so out of date it’s sure to become a collector’s piece.

It's not that simple. In some places, there are African leaders suggesting that something other than HIV (poverty, witches, etc.) cause AIDS . And, some (like the South African president and the Minister of Health) are suggesting that ARVs are dangerously toxic and that garlic, beetroot, and lemon are the way to go if you have AIDS or witch doctor's herbs (some sangomas). But, money is part of the problem. WHO, the U.N. and lots of smaller organizations are working to try to increase the availability of ARVs. Religious groups can be helpful. But, they also can be harmful when they insist that condoms are immoral or ineffective or that people are safe if they are faithful and abstain until marriage. The biggest problem that religion poses is the stigma that some religious people associate with AIDS. It leads to a lack of willingness to help and it also leads to silence (which leads to death). What the Catholic Church has done in S.A. sucks, but I love Desmond Tutu of the Anglican Church. (I saw a sign at an Anglican Church that said "This is an AIDS friendly church.)

:roflmao:

But, what's really surprising is that there are people buying it who are really victims of it. Have you ever read the parts of the Bible that deal with slavery? It's a wonder that any slaves or descedants of slave or, for that matter, people who abhor the concept of slavery, adore this book and the purported author of this book. Can anyone explain that to me?

On a subject related to the treatment of women as property and inferior beings, here are some verses related to slavery:

Leviticus 25:44

Exodus 21:20:

Ephesians 6:5:

I’m just not getting why slaves would find Christianity appealing. Why would any slave worship a god who condoned slavery -- and brutal slavery at that -- and commanded that they be loyal slaves? (Actually, why would any person worship a God who believed and commanded such things?) Did the American slaves who escaped to the North feel unchristian? Is it simply that people believe in God, so they’re afraid to question God's dictates? Or do they think that they will be compensated for their suffering in heaven? It really baffles me.

Plus, again, if you disagree with God about the issue of slavery, then what principled basis do you have for deciding what you do and do not agree with and follow in the Bible?

I’ll try to post Clay’s favorite verse later this week, along with the context. It’s kind of long, so I’ll try to figure out a way to edit it, but still give accurate context.

:roflmao:


Anyone going to try to explain/justify these slavery excerpts. Mind boggling. I will apologize in advance - Sorry - Jesus comes across as an egotistical ass.


An aquaintance of mine has been reading up on religious issues and briefly told me about a theory he is beginning to subscribe to - that the original bible looks nothing like the present day version, that it was re-written around 600 AD and that that is when sexism came into it. Part of the thoery includes that Mary Magdalen was Jesus' wife rather than the town whore. Only spoke briefly about this so I'm missing a lot of details. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about.

Windmill, if you're reading :hello:

Very interesting posts, girls. I always run into my question around any issue like this. I assume that the bible is so sexist because it was written by men.


What if that isn't the reason. Suppose God ( if you believe in him ) really says that men are superior and that he made women to serve them?? For example, women are generally more empathetic, nurturing, feel the need to "nest", can handle pain better than men, live longer than men ( who would want your servant to die before you're done with them?), are less agressive, etc.


It could all be part of God's plan, which is another reason not to care for the guy.

That's one of the theories in the book The DaVinci Code, which is fiction and entertainment. There's a lot of hooey in that book, starting with calling Leonardo "DaVinci" all the time, which no scholar ever would do. (Vinci's just where he came from. It's like calling Joan "Of Arc.") The author also says in that book that the Catholic church demonized Mary Magdalene and forbade her from being mentioned. To the contrary, she is a saint. There are a lot of gospels, like the Gospel of Thomas, that were rejected before the four were agreed upon as the standard, and I think the Gospel of Mary was one of them.

The only defense I can imagine about the slavery passages is that at least some of the passages called for humane treatment of the slaves, better than the norm in the ancient world. That's not saying much.

I'd like to know about Clay's favorite passage, too. It is about only being still and God will be there...??