Kroot Kodex Feedback and suggestion Thread, Feedback and ideas for later additions.

Good feedback guys, this is great!

I love to brag to my friends about how wonderful it is to actually be able to talk about the problems in our codex with the folks who publish it, and to feel like we may have some way to contribute to making it better/more fair and fixing its problems. Every codex has units that underperform, unclear issues, and quirks that don't work the way they should, but with an official codex there is no way that you can challenge these things. It is actually a pretty nice consolation for our "unofficial" status I think!

That said, lets get into I shall we!

Hunters:
The +1 to hit for sniper rifles is an interesting possibility, and I like the tactic to focus on the weapon not the kroot, it makes it more versatile and would finally make a master shaper with a decent chance to hit something at range! I disagree with you Hanska, it is a better solution than Bs 4 for the reasons listed above, but you are right that the changes to sniper rifles and rending really hurt this unit badly.. And you are also right that it again begs the Q as to why kroot hunting rifles are better than imperial or SM sniper rifles? Though I don't think they are using muskets... they are using scavenged equipment or their own home developed versions. Another way would be to say that due to their unique design kroot hunting rifles can be reloaded much more speedily than conventional sniper rifles, leading to a much higher rate of fire and thus they fire as if twin linked? This has a similar problem as the +1 to hit though, and is actually slightly better percentage-wise which may not go over well, but it might be more justifiable in the fluff... maybe?

[Edit] I just though of this, what if we were do do either the +1 to hit, or making them TL, but specified that they are not as powerful as most sniper rifles, needing a 3+ to wound instead of a 2+... just a thought...

it wasn't the moving them to being HS that I thought might be unorthodox, rather would be the move to make them 0-3 units of hunters/slot. Generally the only units that are 0-3 units/slot are either independents or small teams, like the Tau sniper drone teams or zoanthropes... but units of 5-10 hunters aren't so different from Tau sniper drone teams... I proposed this because as a regular HS choice they are not worth it imo. Even while we don't normally fill our HS slots, I think hunters are not useful except in multiple teams working together, or in one big team... so if they were regular HS taking one would mean taking 2 or 3 in my opinion, which would fill our HS too quickly and render the really (or at least potentially...) good HS units like GK's on the outs. They have the same roblem in elites at the moment, except that since headhunters suck, and stalkers are so situational as you say, it is less of a big deal. I'm glad you like this idea though turbo, I didn't know what people would think of it but I think it could be a viable way to solve our problem. What do you all think of the idea of giving them stealth though? It would really help with their survivability, especially since they are in such small squads and so it only takes a few casualties to cause a morale test... it is pretty darn fluffy if you as me! But with changes to the hunting rifle and mving them around in the FOC it may be too much. Still, I'd pay +1 or 2 pts to give them stealth if it were an option...

Trackers:

I totally agree. Their defined role atm is only to be a suicide tank busting unit.
Changing their rifles to assault weapons is an option, and one I've brought up before. It does bring up the big Q of why all kroot don't have access to a decent assault weapon, which may be too big of a change to make, unfortunately.

If it were totally up to me, I would create two completely new kroot weapons - a kroot version of a shotgun, and a kroot fighting staff, and I'd also include kroot pistols and machete's (hand weapon) in this list, and I'd allow certain units the option to switch between some or all of these options, as the orks can between shootas and sluggas w/ hand weapons... this way we'd have more versatility in how our units work on the field without changing basic stats. But it is not only up to me.

But back to trackers, the only way to make use of their ability to take hunting rifles is to allow them to move using bike rules (since bikes are relentless). So, in my opinion, the best way to fix the trackers is to drop their points to around 15 or so, keeping them as is. That way you can field more of them at a decent cost, they can still deliver the eviscerator without being too cheap, and they remain multi purpose without being overpowered. Then, I'd allow them an upgrade to swap out their mounts for either bikes (+4pts/model?) or jetbikes/terradons (+5 or 6pts/model... points could be altered once more comparative research has been done, this is just a preliminary suggestion). With either of these they become a much more deadly eviscerator delivery system since with turbo boost the are less dependent upon the first turn, but at a cost. They can then shoot their rapid fire guns and charge at no penalty, and they can use their sniper weapons and remain mobile. This is the only way, in my opinion, to actually do what the trackers are supposed to do. If we aren't going to do this, we might as well just remove their ability to take hunting rifles as it is never going to be used. But of course, this may be too much of a change to be acceptable which is why I suggested working on the extension... but it is what I'd do...

Hounds:

I would. I love hounds, they are the bomb. Literally. The rational behind disallowing them I think stems from the old CA dex if I'm not mistaken, and from the argument that it maintained the uniqueness of the hound unit, something was needed to keep all the units from just being the same. Though I disagree, 5 hounds are nice, but they are nothing compared to 10+ hounds in a hound unit!!! And if carnivores could take hounds, why not headhunters? It was argued somewhere that the Kroot that accompany tau are more like 'specialized' ranger squads rather than regular rank and file troopers, but given their ability to not take shapers and armour I don't buy that. But having stalkers, IC's and councils being able to take hounds is good enough so it isn't too big a deal for me...

Oxen:

good, do it. let me know how it goes. I don't think it will get me to change my opinion on it, but it is worth trying out to see how it changes them. And I'm keen to hear how the bolt thrower oxen do, this would be fantastic change imo, making single oxen a useful upgrade for carnivores, and making heavy weapons oxen units a serious force to be reckoned with. As an upgrade to the oxen it should cost about +5pts I think. If a TL kroot gun is 30pts, then a regular kroot gun is about 20 following the logic of most TL weapons (twin linking costing half agian the regular cost of the weapon). And the bolt thrower is a 25pt upgrade, so assuming the oxen has the 20pt kroot gun incorporated into his cost, +5pts. Though as I said before, I think that in mounting a bolt thrower on an oxen it should go from being an assault weapon to a heavy weapon, due to the unstable nature of the oxen as a weapons platform, and the unwieldiness of the bolt thrower... that's my opinion anyway.

Thanks for reading my very long-winded rambles, I seem to have a hard time with brevity...

Cheers!

Howdy! I have been lurking and reading along the forum...

First, I want to echo many of my fellow gamers, the Kroot Kodex is an amazing piece of work. As a non-Kroot player I can certainly say that it has nothing to envy any of the official Codexii out. Hmmm... now that I think of it, I should make sure to mentioned that was meant as a compliment!

More than the game mechanics, which I should not comment as I'm not a Kroot player, I would like to comment some on the background included. I think is well thought and establishes the 'reasoning' behind why the Kroot Mercenary Army works the way it does. To me, it does not seem like a bunch of 'cool unit X' and 'super strong unit Y' put together, but that each unit has a reason to be. This makes the Kodex much more robust. I can say by experience, this is not an easy task to do, and you guys make it look easy. YEAY!!!

Although not critical, for future editions you guys could considering adding 'side stories' of a campaign from the Kroot side. It would further cement that unique Kroot feel you guys are trying to convey. All in all...



GREAT JOB!!!

I think hunters could be useful if they were Troops choice. Scoring snipers are just so nice.

I want the Krootox were much more versatile weapon, put a gun to be good decent squad shooting platforms, that 3 Krootox make a big staff or even give you an Assault weapon and use the Krootox in close combat.

If we get that Krootox be a decent shooting platform, the Hunters can be a decent support these Krootox, along with a GK with a shot gun

I came up with an idea with trackers. The rules they got today doen't really reflect their intended role on the battlefield. Maybe we could give them a special rules that allows us to increases the reserve roll by 1+ with a single unit each turn, as long as they are alive ofcourse. Or maybe an reroll on the dice that determines the side a unit outflanks on. Just an idea. I dont't think they should be a shaper delivery sytem thats just weird.

Congrats on the new KK Kodex v.5.85! I love the Kodex and I'm fortunate to play with a group that also loves it and playing against it.

As I was reading over some suggestions here I noticed the idea, over and over, that the Kodex needs to be less powerful than official Codices to be accepted as a reasonable Fan-dex. I totally agree with that. I'd rather have a slightly underpowered army my friends and I enjoy playing than an overpowered one I can play with only two or three times. To that end I just have some suggestions about the Shaman psychic powers for the next version.

First having six powers to chose from might be too much of a good thing. Having only 4 well balanced powers would make the choice of which to take very hard. That's how it should be. If there are so many though, it seems likely that people will pick out the two best and never take any others. This is similar to how Hive Tyrants will NEVER take the horror for any game because the other abilities (paroxysm) are just SOOOOO much better in any situation (paroxysm).

(paroxysm)

The Shaman seems to me to be a support HQ choice. This is perfect for Kroot as the whole army seems based around slightly weaker than average units working together to become very powerful. Some of the Shaman powers seem too powerful though. Specifically the Psychic Stampede and Bio-Storm powers. For an 80pt support HQ to need only one shooting attack and a bit of luck to wipe out a 250pt terminator squad is a bit much. Psychic Stampede can devastate low LD, low Save horde armies like Orks and Guard in one or two turns.

These two abilities do not seem like something a typical Kroot Shaman should be able to wield. They also seem to go against the grain of a Support HQ. Angkor Prok is a very good support HQ. No one thinks he'll take out Dante in close combat but he can and will with some friends to back him up.

The other abilities I like very much and they are all very fluffy, versatile, and synergistic with the Kroot. The seem like what a Shaman could and would be able to do. The only critique I have is of Tangleroot. In an effort to not appear too powerful why not change Tangleroot to something similar to the Venomthrope's ability. Instead of a shooting attack, make it take affect if the Shaman and any units within 6" are charged. Adding a defensive grenades effect to it would help make up some of the power lost. Forcing a move through dangerous terrain and devastate unit since no saves are allowed.

Sorry for the long post and I do hope someone reads it. Awesome Kodex and I hope to see it get even better!

Those actually sound like really good ideas. I can wait to see how the team acts on them.

Got to say, great codex! Sorry for this nit picky comment, but on page 7 it says

Surely that should be time?

Also, I agree with Mordheimer. We need some more stories about kroot campaigns and battles! Also, mabye some more on famous figures, like Khibala Yusra, First Born Twin of the Spear. Now THAT was a cool two paragraphs.

Oh, and I absolubtly adore the new modeling section. Shame it wasn't in the 4th edition kodex...

I know this has been brought up before, and I'm probably just beating a dead horse, but just bare with me.

I think that its perfectly acceptable to allow variation in the kroot state line between the 4 kindreds: Carnivores, Headhunters, Hunters, and Stalkers. It not only follows the fluff, but it also makes sense when compared to the Official Codexes.

Kroot base S and T are 4 and 3 respectfully and this should not be altered, it stays in line that everyone in the same race has the same physical build more or less. for example all Eldar(not uncluding on jetbikes, special heroes, and wraithguards/lords) have S3 and T3. The same can be said about Imperial Guard and with Space Marines and chaos at S and T 4.

Having said that in EVERY CODEX (tyranids being the exception) there is an elite unit with a similar state line to the base troop, but with a single extra Attack.
Terminators, Possessed Chaos Space Marine, Ogryn, Flayed ones, Nobz, Battlesuits, Howling Banshees, Wych(?)

I think it would be following in line with the other codexes to give variation in the state line, even if this means nerfing them in some respects to make us not look like were "one of those" fandexes. Also an increase in points would be much expected.

Heres my suggestion for my Headhunters, I have yet to play test them however.

Headhunter: Cost: 201 points
WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A , LD, Save
4 , 3 , 4 , 3 , 1 , 3 , 2 , 8 , 6+

1 Shaper and 9 kroot

Special Rules: Fieldcraft, Infiltrate, Poisoned Weapon +4, Preferred enemy USR

Also remove the option to get Blood of the Stalker so people dont get too angry

Perhaps we could put together a couple of new special characters, Khibara usufa (edit: Khibala Yusra, sorry, typo), etc. (Would he be like a Headhunter hero or something?)
That said, after my initial shock of having carnivore kindreds lose BoTS, the new kodex has directed me to try a new kind of kroot army, which I would consider to be a good thing. Despite my initial mixed feelings, nice job.

This post has been edited by Aloh'Kais on May 28 2010, 01:29 PM

That actually sounds like a pretty good idea, perhaps when you add Khibala to a kindred of Headhunters then it gives the whole squad Preferred enemy USR. I believe the Ork codex has something very similar to that.

So he'd be hind of like an upgrade character?
I was kind of thinking he'd be a sort of kroot big-thing-with-teeth hunter, but if he upgrades a headhunter squad, he could just add to the virulence of their poisons. (3+ perhps? I'm just throwing out ideas here. I also kind of like the preferred enemy thing, to.)

How about Elder Shaper Harbyx from DoW Dark Crusade? He could have an honour gaurd of Kroot alphas.

I was thinking of something to make the krootox a little better. He should do something like getting 3 close combat attacks against the enemy when the krootox dies. I only say this because the codex says it has 3 toughness to signify that you are killing the rider and the beast wanders off pacifly, but the fluff says that the krootox will die to protect its master. So I dont think it should have 3 toughnes if it doesnt wander off pacifly in fluff so why should it in game? Getting one more chance to hit its attack can show its last defense against its attackers.
OR
I would suggest raising the tougness to 4 instead of getting free attacks to show to show that it I protecting its master. This would make the krootox a more preferable model not to mention strength 6 would no longer instant kill the 35pt model.
A point increase would be a definite must for either of these upgrades.

All I say is give it some thought and a few little playtests and it may be a good change to the dex. Besides its not like we have to use 100% of the GW dex since this is a a fandex and we should twist it to make it as krooty as fluff says, but not make it overpowered.

Let me know what everyone thinks I want as much feedback to my idea as I can get.