Title: Tournament Cheating??? What do i do?
Ralph52 - December 11, 2006 06:13 PM (GMT)
I'm involved in a campaign type tournament taking place over 12 weeks. Yesterday was week three and something happened I'd like to run by members for their opinions.
Some background. Yesterdays battle was a 1000 point meeting engagement (known in advance). Terrain was generated and weather visibility conditions are rolled at the beginning of each players turn. Opponents are unknown, they are drawn but you don't play someone who you've already played.
When we arrive at the store we are to turn in our army lists. Mine was printed out using Army Builder 3 software but most players just had their army lists written in pencil.
My opponent turned out to be an O&G guy and when he saw he was playing me (and he saw my army list on the counter), a High Elf player who had a Cavalry heavy army with no magic he "TWEAKED" his army list. He added two Fanatics to two blocks of infantry (4 Fanatics) and a level 2 mage. For some reason he told me he changed his list. I don't know what units he dropped to get the necessary points though.
Now the tournament director also added a trick to this scenario afterwards. In the middle of the board was a hole and on turn #3 roll a D6. On 4+ a giant emerges (rolling an arow die to see what side he come out of) and charges the nearest unit.
Well here's how the game goes. Turn #1 my move up everyone (4 SH, 1 DP, 1 ER, 2 eagles and Comd on eagle). Turn #2, 4 Fanatics pop out delaying all my charges. The turn #3 disaster. Giant pops out and charges a unit of SHs. They fail and flee 3 D6 which turns out to be 5 inches and are destroyed. Mages get an extra round of Brain Busta attacks. Fanatics all move to mess up any charges I have. Turn 4 another Giant pops out (naturally in the best possible position to hurt me) and destroys a weakened unit of 3 SHs that were held up. Both SH units destroyed by giants would not have been were they were if it wasn't for the fanatics.
So the game turned into a rout. Major loss for this humble writer. Afterwards I called the store a spoke to the Tourny director. I told him what happened and that I didn't want to make any trouble but that he should make it clear , next week, that once lists are turned in, the army is fixed and no changed can be made. He quickly agreed.
Now the more I think about it, I realize I was screwed.
1. Should I be satisfied with the Tourny director restating the rules about no changes to army list?
2. Should I make a formal complaint?
3. If so, then how should I make a formal complaint.
4. What results should I be satisfied with?
Thanks and any other comments you'd like to add or questions would be welcome.
Also, I plan to put this post on a few other WFB sites to get non-HE opinions.
Whirlwind - December 11, 2006 06:44 PM (GMT)
Hmmm I think it is weird that your opponent gets a bloody free Giant appearing at a crucial time in the centre of the board lol.
I also think the guy tweaking his list is a disgrace, the greater disgrace going to him not being disqualified and the victory yours.
I wonder if they perhaps look down on your all cav list, maybe they wanted to teach you a lesson...
Still that is really wrong of them, they should try talking to you about their views etc before anything so childish and drastic.
Caladai Senthil - December 11, 2006 07:18 PM (GMT)
I don't see anything wrong with the Giant emerging on turn 3, so long as he charges the nearest unit, regardless of who it belongs to. That can make the game more of a challenge, though I do tend to hate such modifications to scenarios.
As for the Orc & Goblin player, his actions would merit immediate disqualification in any tourney I have ever run or played in. I've seen people banned from GW stores for months as a result of doing things like that, and sometimes for less. It's a disgrace to the hobby, and should not be tolerated.
You should not be in any way satisfied with the director simply "restating" the rules next week. They were announced at the beginning, per standard tournament rules, and have been in effect since then. I personally would demand (in a private conversation with the director first) that my opponent be disqualified.
Talk to the director. If he doesn't seem to care, speak with the store or district manager. Typically, there will be a guy who runs 3-9 local stores, and has the final say on their activities. If your tourney director doesn't listen, that would be the person to speak with.
Ralph52 - December 11, 2006 09:49 PM (GMT)
Sorry if I didn't make it clear how the Giant works. The giant emerges from a hole (2" Diameter) in the center of the board starting from turn #3 on if a four is rolled on a D6. An artillery die ( the one with 4 arrows and 2 hits) is rolled to see what direction the giant is facing. The Giant then emerges and charges the nearest unit in his attack arc or moves toward the nearest unit. It was my bad luck that had both the giants came out facing my direction. BUT ( a big BUT) if the illegally added Fanatics weren't in place, my horsemen would not have been there to be brutalized.
New question. Is my all cavalry list cheesey. There are two Bret players and so far (games have only been 500 & 1000 points) all they took were horsemen. There are some strong defensive players like Dwarves, Empire and VC that hold their ground so marching infantry units 36" means no contact until the fourth turn. Thats why I came with fast units.
My reasoning for Calalry (besides being fun) is:
The problem with using shooting units is the weather visibility tests are taken at the beginning of each players turn. It works this way. Roll the art die with numbers (2,4,6,8,10 & hit) multiply by 3 to see the distance seen. So a RBT only has 1 chance in 6 of shooting its full range. Archers only have a 1 chance in 3 of shooting their full range. Get it?
Getting back to the issue. Am I to say to the Director, " I want this O&G player disqualified?" Or "I want to awarded a victory?"
Oh, and I think I know where the O&G player got his points for the Fanatics and L2 Mage. He uses 3 OK Leadbelchers in his rare slot.
Thanks for the replies
strewart - December 12, 2006 01:11 AM (GMT)
Springing the giants at the last minute is a bit iffy, they probably should have told you before. But I guess it is a pretty funny idea, and could have been as much of a disadvantage to your opponent. In such a small battle I think its too big of an influence... But anyway.
Yes, changing the list at the last minute after he'd seen yours is definitely not good tourny play, as the others have said.
Ralph52 - December 12, 2006 03:41 AM (GMT)
Hi again Whirlwind,
I'd like to clear up any misconceptions about an all-mounted force.
First it is virtually impossible for a unit of 5-6 Cavalry to charge a ranked unit of infantry and win out right. I mean you are looking at 3 ranks and numbers for a Combat Resolution to start for a minimum of minus four. Now the infantry is most likely to have a musician and banner which means the Cavalry General needs to cause 6 wounds to break out even.
Now a unit of 5 Silver Helms with a Champion will cost 129 points. To try and reduce the CR I need to add a banner, muscian and another rank (5 models) so the SHs now costs a wopping 265 points.
The way to win with Cavalry is you need get a flank attack in at the same time as a frontal charge. This takes away all the infantry unit's ranks, adds +1 for a flank attack, gives you more attacks and probably gives you numbers. This combo attack is very satisfying when accomplished but not easily executed.
The nicest thing about fast movers is you, the general, determine the battle.
Caladai Senthil - December 12, 2006 05:03 AM (GMT)
There is only one all-cavalry force I would ever consider calling cheesy, and even then, it would have to be a pretty cheesy mounted Khorne list. Anyway, no I do not think it is possible to make a cheesy High Elf list, cav or otherwise. Why? Because regardless of the units you take, you're looking at S3, T3 Elves who won't stand up to a stiff breeze if it hits them the wrong way. Elves more than any other, require sound tactics and maneuvering, not sound, or cheesy, army lists.
As for the dealings with the tourney director, I wouldn't say "I want the victory awarded to me," because that would make him think your motives are for yourself. Just explain to him that those illegal changes altered the entire scope of the battle, and you believe that significant action should be taken against the Orc & Goblin player. Switching from 3 Leadbelchers (free VPs for a cav army due to their short range) to some fanatics (deadly against cav) and wizards is extremely drastic. Especially the wizard part, that would piss me off.
"You have no magic? Ok, hold on a minute while I add in a few wizards..."
Whirlwind - December 12, 2006 03:39 PM (GMT)
I wasn't claiming that it is my personal beleif that all cav lists are cheesy, I used one for around half of last year until I grew bored of its comparative power and how repetitive it gets.
I just have heard that some people do consider them cheesy or look down on them, but I stress that this is not my personal belief.