Discussion, Comments about our Response to SoS

Thank you for this whole section. I wonder why people get the idea they sleep together-- for anyone who's ever been in a relationship, when you get mad at your partner you don't tell them to sleep in their room, you tell them to sleep on the couch.

I'm not great with the quotes like you guys, but I do think this needs to be addressed. I'm really tired of the, "Because he feels guilt about her, he doesn't love her!" Why on earth does he feel so guilty, then? He's not torturing himself over the lives of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. Jessie also had a one-sided crush on Cloud and barely knew him-- if this was the similar case with Aeris, why is he still so fixated on her? The guilt was born out of a failure to protect someone he loved, not just because Random Person on his team died.

Zack appears over Denzel, a friend, while Aeris' image appears over Tifa, the other love interest. The implications of that alone should tell you something lmao.

I think it should also be pointed out that while he feels guilt over Zack and Aeris' deaths it shouldn't be overlooked that they are both very different cases.

I only started playing Final Fantasy VII this year in January. Since then I have played the game over again four times in a row. Simply put, I love the game, despite the game being twelve years old now.

I generally do not get involved in fan forums or fan sites. The reason for this is that I feel uncomfortable admitting I would even have an interest to, most especially when one is a guy and the forums for such sites are decked out entirely in pink. It can really drive the discomfort level up. None the less I feel highly compelled to compliment the essay writers for their thorough, detailed, and critical break down of the Love Triangle. After playing FFVII and seeing Advent Children I felt the overall inclination that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple, thus I sought to find evidence proving this. Of any of the material I've reviewed, it is the essays from this site that do an excellent job proving the 'Clerith' relationship. I will probably never post on this site again and attempt to forget my username, but know that there are people viewing the site that take your efforts seriously, and hold your findings in high regard. So much so that they would register an account for the sole purpose of sharing their appreciation.

I have my odd way of doing things. Take pleasure in knowing that I never typically do something like this.

Great job!

Off Topic:

I only started playing FFVII, my first FF game no less, this year in January after watching AA and having absolutely no idea what was going on. Round that time I found no interesting games so I decided to pick of FFVII and see what all the fuss was about. In brief, I've now played through the game four times, watched AA and AAC, just as much, and have been mentally absorbed in the world that is FFVII and its characters. In particular I find myself fascinated with the Cloud Aerith storyline and the Love Triangle. Its also worth mentioning that I avoid almost every game fan site out of embarrassment for myself at the thought that I could be caught reading forums that have all the visual flare of a fourteen year old's bedroom (no offense). I'm the kind of person who despises fan fiction just to give you an idea of the kind of guy I am.

Regardless, I can't help but admit that your essays and break down of the complex relationships of FFVII"s characters and the story are highly mature and professional. It allows one to further appreciate the intricacies of the FFVII universe. As an aspiring novelist, it really helps me with character development.

I don't intend on posting ever again here, not because of dislike for the site, but out of insecurities. I'm a guy and this site has too much pink for me. I just wanted to take the opportunity to let you guys know however, especially considering the quality of this particular thread, that you're essays are excellent and, most of all, relevant. Keep up the great work cause people DO read these essays. Even people like me

It kinda grows into ya! Sure it burns your corneas when you first get here, but it's hard to imagine this place now without the pinkness.

Welcome and hope to see ya again btw.

Otsug, you should come back. You seem really cool. Nice to see others are reading the essays, though. They're too well written and put together with real hard facts to not be read by anyone other then us.

Thanks very much for the feedback, everyone! We appreciate it.

Just a note to everyone: for some reason, this forum has been requiring that staff approve posts before they're displayed. I think it was a problem with the settings, and I *think* I've corrected it. But should it continue, please let me know. Sorry about that!

@Otsug: You were one of the people whose post had to be approved. We appreciate your feedback, and we hope to see you again!

I agree, Zelda. We haven't finished discussing that, either. There's absolutely nothing definite about where they sleep. It's all up to interpretation. But I completely agree that it's ludicrous to think that Tifa would tell Cloud to go drink in his room if they were actually sharing one.

I completely agree, and don't worry... we'll be addressing that. SoS's analysis is *very* long, so there's a lot to cover!

I haven't read this until now as I wanted to give you guys a chance to respond to the things you felt important without having to revise much. There's really not a lot I want to say other than, "Good job."

Despite taking issue with several little things, I think you've argued this very well. You've put together a consistent portrayal of the Clerith point of view -- one, that, yes, I would say doesn't require its disparate elements to work in isolation -- and offered me a better understanding of it; as has FF Goddess in my PM discussions with her.

Really, thank you for this.

I have to say now that pre-Nojima Statement, this matter was not as cut and dry as I thought it was. Even the matter of the Kingdom Hearts analysis will require some revising.

I still think that, ultimately, there's a little bit more pointing to a Cloti conclusion if you don't include the Nojima Statement, but I'll be damned if you guys haven't made a good argument for why a Clerith conclusion could be drawn.

Seriously, you guys are good. XD

This makes me think Nojima's comments are more important than I realized in determining a conclusion -- though I can see why, in light of everything else, you guys would be hesitant to accept that he was going for a conclusion there. I just don't think there's any other way to take what he was saying, but I certainly won't tell you guys you have to take it the same way.

But I think I can accommodate all of us by changing that one line early in the article to, "I now believe there is a definitive answer."


Anyway, on to some responses. Some of what you guys talked about in here was brought up in the other thread, so I won't need to respond to it again here. Some other parts I discussed with FFG, and don't really feel like going over again.

Not meaning to slight anyone's points. I'm just shooting for the highlights of what stood out to me at this point.

The guilt you mention is part of what I was talking about. He believed he couldn't protect people he cared for, so it made him anxious and he felt unworthy of being happy.

Not really. He was dying at that point and thought he was a burden who couldn't contribute anything in return.

It's never been said that he felt less alone there. If anything, the church -- like Aerith herself -- is a symbol of his guilt, and thus, the wolf appears there, explaining that connection Nomura mentioned between the church and Cloud's undying feeling). Going to die there was his penance for his "sins."

Plus, the fact that remains that his feelings of loneliness continued even while there.

Cloud's loneliness seems to have nothing to do with where he is and instead how he isolates himself even when he's around people. He didn't feel worthy of the people he cared about.

CoT is a really short story that covers a large span of time. I wouldn't take its lack of picnics as an indication that he was miserable.

To answer your question, though, the best CoT offers for displaying him happy is Cloud and Tifa's "silly everyday conversations." In the rest of what's shown, it either doesn't show what he's feeling at the time, or he's miserable.

Cloud wasn't in a depression for two straight years. It was only after going to the City of the Ancients to deliver flowers for Elmyra that it seems to have started. It's unclear how long that was into the two years.

As for Cloud not feeling alone because he knows Aerith is always with him, why, again, did he feel alone even while living in the church? Or after they talked in the flower field sequence? I think his loneliness comes from his isolation of himself and how he wants to be punished. It's his guilt that does it to him.

The wolf that Nomura said represents "the deepest part of Cloud's psyche" appears in places relevant to both Zack and Aerith. All of it applies to both of them.

Though I'd agree that Cloud feels more guilt for Aerith since he could have actually done something different that might have saved her. In Zack's case, there was nothing he could have done.

With Aerith, he'd have to ask himself, "What if I'd broken free of Sephiroth's control a second sooner, or not been so weak as to be controlled in the first place? What if I'd done anything when he started coming down from the sky toward her?"

It really only makes sense that she's the symbol of his "sins."

Yeah, you made a lot of good points there. I've already revised the stuff about that.

I still say, though, that there's nothing obvious about it being the White Materia. In any case, it being obvious wouldn't alone be enough to prevent it from requiring mention given that Zack's sword -- which is even more obvious -- gets identified.

And it still seems like the other heroes in that game just get generic crystals.

Nothing points to it being Yuna's sphere. FFX is full of other spheres that look just like that, including the Jecht spheres, Jyscal's sphere, and the ones on the floor of each travel agency.

I would say that was actually representing the end of FFX when he jumped off the airship and vanished. It's very similar.

And the lake is there because they're in Cornelia.

Squall's crystal isn't that feather. His crystal is some weird looking thing that no one has been able to identify yet.

As for the other leading males with love interests, Cecil's crystal has nothing to do with Rosa, and Zidane's has nothing to do with Garnet. Zidane just gets a miniature version of the crystal of creation.

And the rest of these guys (WoL, Firion, OK, Bartz) don't even have love interests, really, nor does Terra. Bartz would probably come the closest, and his crystal definitely doesn't have anything to do with any of the female characters in his game.

Oh, I'd definitely agree that Cloud had a desire to be there for her. That doesn't rise to the level of being her boyfriend in a mutual capacity when they haven't even discussed it.

But, yeah, I'd agree that Cloud probably picked up on Aerith's intentions with him around the time of the Temple of the Ancients. He's slow, but he can't be that slow.

Both Aerith and Sephiroth have spent time in Cloud's head telepathically. He could be sensing one or both through either one of them or through both.

He sees Zack too. He's "Zack's living legacy." This connection isn't unique to Cloud and Aerith, nor to Cloud in general. Nomura said they were exploring the idea that the consciousness of the dead live on in those dear to them/those they were dear to.

True. If he did, though, one would think he would have picked up on hers at the time of the date. It would have been a perfect opportunity.

The actual wording in Japanese would be most important. There's nothing even there to have translated as "character." "Dimensions" is most likely what "tachiba" became.

The line basically says, "Tifa has various roles." That's really what it comes down to. The English translation heavily retooled the entire quote.

I see your meaning. I guess that's where differences of interpretation unavoidably come into play.


In any case, that's all I wanted to say. I'll be updating the article again at some point due to the discussions I've had with Anastar and FF Goddess. I encourage you guys to continue working on stuff like this as long as you think the matter isn't settled.

You've definitely impressed me.

I had a pretty long response to this typed out, but for some reason, it didn't post.

The gist of it was this: I hadn't looked at this thread until now as I wanted to give you guys a chance to respond to everything you felt was important without having to revise anything before you'd done so.

I also wanted to say, "good job." Between here and my PM discussions with FF Goddess, you guys have put together a comprehensive, consistent analysis from the Clerith perspective, and given me a better understanding of it.

For that, I thank you.

You've shown me that a Clerith perspective doesn't require analysis of most elements in isolation, and there's a legitimate avenue by which one can come to hold this perspective. As well, you've shown me that pre-Nojima Statement, this matter was not nearly so cut and dry as I'd previously believed.

That said, I still feel there's a little bit more going for Cloti, and that Nojima's comments still confirm a Cloti conclusion. That said, I can see why -- given the ambiguity of everything that's come before -- you would be hesitant to accept it as such.

I'll be doing one more large overhaul to my LTD article, incorporating much of what's been brought up, as well as offering a more extensive presentation of the Clerith perspective. I think I can also accommodate everyone by changing the line "There's now a definitive answer" to "I believe there's now a definitive answer."

There were some specific points you guys had brought up in here that I wanted to address, but now that I've lost what I had typed up, I don't really feel like heading back through all of it. The only thing I will bring up again relates to the crystals in Dissidia, and is in response to AerithGainsborough:

Tidus' crystal in Dissidia looks like a lot of spheres that are in FFX, not just Yuna's. Jyscal's, the Jecht spheres, the ones on the floor of the travel agencies, etc.

Also, Zidane's crystal is just a miniature version of the crystal of creation. It has nothing to do with Garnet. For that matter, Cecil's crystal has nothing to do with Rosa.

As for Squall, that feather wasn't his crystal. It was just a feather he caught. His actual crystal is some weird thing that no one's been able to identify.

So the male leads with love interests don't all receive crystals related to their love interests. And half of the heroes don't have love interests at all.


Anyway, with that one point addressed, I'll be taking my leave. Again, thank you all for the discussion and the fine points you have made. I don't agree with a lot of what's been said, but what has been said has been enough to convince me that I have one more revision to do -- and that Clerith had some solid footing, after all.

Thanks again.

Thanks very much for your comments, TresDias. I'm transferring your comments to our Discussion thread, however, since the Response thread is for actually writing our Response to you.

BTW, we're nowhere near done yet. We've slowed down our responses, but I was actually intending to add to it today. You've given us so much to cover!

And yes, I've been following your debate with FFG, which has been very interesting. I sorta let her take over responding to you since she's able to grind out much more in less time than I am. She speaks for all of us, though, since we share her perspective.

Perhaps you and FFG wouldn't mind if I posted your debate at the Northern Crater in a readable-only thread? (Readable-only since I know you're not finished yet.) I'm sure everyone on both sides would love to see it. BTW, it's already 47 pages long in Word, and I don't think I even have the entire thing.

And I must say... very well done, FFG, and thanks for all your work on it!

@TresDias: I've answered some of your comments in our Response thread.

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I finally found the problem that was causing people to have trouble posting in this thread. Sorry that happened, but it's fixed now.

This post has been edited by Anastar on Oct 10 2009, 11:24 AM

Just FYI and sorry if this is the wrong thread, but Tres has reworked his essay again... it's 36 pages long (not kidding, before it was about 15).

But I think you guys will like it as he did include some Clerith perspective in it. He provided some counter arguments for pretty much all his original arguments and says he can see how Clerith perspective can be supported. So I don't know if you guys are going to wait to keep working with it or not I'm just letting you know because I think you should wait until the new version gets released so you don't spend too much time on something that's going to be said.

EDIT
Sorry I should have read the thread more closely... I guess you all ready knew he was working on it. But i still think you guys will like it more.

Yeah, we knew he was working on a revision. I think we'll keep working on ours, though, since we're basically just countering his arguments right now. We haven't even started on a full Analysis from the Clerith perspective, and I think it'd be good for us to have one written.

The main thing still bugging me about his Analysis is that he still believes what Nojima said is a "definitive statement" about Cloti. To me, Nojima's actually saying that he doesn't think a Cloti love relationship would work out due to all their problems. I'd hardly call that a definitive statement.

Tres Dias, once again you have proven yourself a gentleman and a scholar. You are truly more interested in sharing different points of view rather than "winning" the argument by bludgeoning contenders with monochrome fanaticism. As a neutral Clerith who views the LT as a matter of personal preference rather than a basis for jihad, I'm sometimes be disheartened by all the bile that goes into these LT debates. I'll never forget your open-mindedness and intellectual curiosity on the Lifstream.net forums in contrast to the other members outright hostile rejection of my attempts to expand forum dialogue with broader, more encompassing theories of authorship and canonicity in relation to fandom.

I agree with you, fight the power. TresDias really has been open to discussion rather than trying to bludgeon his viewpoint on others. It's really been refreshing to have someone discuss their viewpoint so openly.

BTW, we haven't finished responding to his Analysis, either. We've just been caught up with other things, such as the Forum Anniversary Party and Halloween. We should get back to our response soon!