Koibito Discussion, From the 3rd page :D

I think people worded it their own way. Cuz I own the Euro manual and the NA manual and they never say that. Now I gotta go make sure.

A video would be far better if you have the stuff to make one. If nothing else, you can tell everyone exactly what you do to get those results so it can be repeated.

Well, if she's saying "I've always been with you" and he says "I mean something different," then clearly he's talking about her being with him in a way that's different from before.

Of course, you can take that to mean different things. As you said, you take it to just mean that they've transitioned from allies in battle to close friends. My understanding is that they were close friends before that moment, so I'm just taking the conclusion I feel is implied by that and related circumstances throughout the Compilation.

Because that's the version most people are familiar with, since it's easier to get.

It's not like the Yuffie or Barret dates are particularly easy to get either, though.

I get that. I feel that there's a more plausible interpretation (one that doesn't call for an unidentified exchange of words), but I'm not discounting the possibility of others.

I'd prefer to say "interpreting" rather than "assuming." The latter implies you've made up your mind before you watch it.

To me, there's only one way to read a scene like that, but I'm approaching it from a cinematic school of thought.

Then why are Tidus and Yuna considered the couple of FFX? I haven't seen the chart for FFX ...

Wait, what? You haven't seen it and don't know what it says, but you're asking me why it says something that you don't know it says?

I haven't seen it either, so I don't know -- but this much I do know: The chart for FFIX in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania doesn't identify either of the game's main couples as being couples. Not Dagger and Zidane, not Beatrix and Steiner.

For Dagger and Zidane, it just says "important existence" ("taisetsu na sonzai") running from both to the other. For Beatrix and Steiner, it says they're rivals.

Here's the chart for reference:

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1657/ffixchart.png

FFVI's chart, on the other hand, has what looks like a "likes" line running from Celes to Locke, and from Locke to Celes. Hard to tell in the scan for it we've seen online, but that's probably it.

Well, for the bit where we see him alive, yes. XD

Well, the same description running between Celes and Locke runs from Eiko to Zidane.

But it's in response to "I've always been with you" that he says he means something different.

Pretty much the whole game.

They've constantly been called "childhood friends" in every official capacity known. Yes, they weren't friends at the well, and Tifa even said they weren't all that close, but it's not like Cloud left the day after they made their promise at the well.

Is it really that hard to imagine that they talked again sometime between that night and when he left?

Even if you discount their childhoods, you would still have to say they were friends prior to the Lifestream sequence -- the same way that Yuffie was Aerith's friend, or Barret was Cid's, or Red XIII was Cid's.

They weren't traveling around all that time thinking they were friends and acting like they were friends while somehow actually being less of friends to one another than the people on the team who had just met each other.

That's fine. I'm not saying that it's as straightforward as "Let's go make little blondes and brunettes."

You said he left because of what she said -- or, at least, that his leaving was a sign that he was lying with his smile.

He built Seventh Heaven. He could have built something a little more luxurious at the church.

One person's feelings don't reflect another's. You've never seen someone get jealous when their boyfriend or girlfriend was hanging out with someone? Even though the boyfriend or girlfriend had no romantic interest in their friend?

The fact that people who speak the same languages misunderstand each other every day tells me that you need more than that. Communication is not perfect.

In any case, she also said she considers Cloud and Tifa together (in that way) post-FFVII, so if you take one conclusion she offered, you have to take the other.

Pg. 41 of the Ultimania Omega says most of his fortunes are innacurate and calls his fortune telling abilities "dubious." For that matter, how much stock are we really going to put in the fortune telling abilities of a fake cat who was controlled by a guy working for the enemy -- who himself has never made any kind of predictions?

The prediction about a wedding that never happened?

Also your save files are in whatever folder FFVII is in (usually Program Files) and in the folder "saves." You just upload whatever is in there to post your saves.

What is this then?

and i'm not trying to be rude, I really don't know what that's about.

He built Seventh Heaven. He could have built something a little more luxurious at the church.

That.... made no sense did you quote the wrong thing?

The wedding of Cloud/Aerith that never happened was based off a fortune saying how wonderfully compatible they both are for each other. That's why Cait Sith said he'll help arrange a marriage for them.And to me they still are just as compatible.

Also, you mean to tell me, his predictions like for example, "you will lose something dear" rings no truth as it is a straight foreshadow of events to come?? Even one of these accurate predictions open a way of thinking that his fortunes can be true.

I think that was foreshadowing on the author's part. But I don't think Cait Sith -- which is to say Reeve, because that's who it really was -- knew a thing about it. He even said he didn't know if the prediction was good or bad.

You're not forgetting the two completely useless predictions that preceded it, though, right?:

Also, something I forgot to say earlier:

In addition to "The prediction about a wedding that never happened?" I'd like to add that Cloud and Tifa being childhood friends has appeared in far more than three official sources.

Why isn't that accepted? It's not like that suggestion is any more at odds with what's shown to us than the predictions of a man in a business suit spying on the team while talking to them through an animatronic cat.

Some of his fortunes are not what Cloud asked for. However, were any of them necessarily wrong? He may have not been telling Cloud what he wanted or needed to hear, but I don't think they were wrong either.

Cloud did give into the good will of others. He learned to care about other people and to care about the planet. Because of that, something big DID happen-- his journey with those people and his showdown with Sephiroth. It wasn't what Cloud asked for, but it wasn't wrong either.

This one actually rings scarily true as Cloud did forget part of his own past. That is actually a big part of his backstory where Tifa has to help him correct his inaccurate memories and that part of himself that he forgot.

Mako Blue Eyes anyone? Do we know for a fact that this one is inaccurate? Nope. Cloud even wears blue. So, for all we know, his lucky color really is blue.

And, like I said before, Cait Sith's ability was referred to as "extraordinary" and called his "innate specialty". Some of his predictions came out as something unrelated to what was asked of him, but he did make some astoundingly accurate predictions. The important ones have been listed in official sources.

You didn't see what I typed apparently:

Well, we all know for a fact that Cloud and Tifa weren't really childhood friends because Tifa herself said so in FFVII during the Lifestream Event. However, it is just easier to say "childhood friends" than "two people who knew one another as children but weren't really friends but became friends once they were grown".

Why would S-E make a list of Cait Sith's inaccurate predictions? Instead, they listed out predictions he made that were helpful and/or important. Among those predictions was the one about Cloud and Aerith's affinity for one another. You really cannot postulate that the list contains inaccurate predictions when, just a few sentences before, Cait Sith's ability was called "extraordinary" and his "specialty".

You have a lot of faith in the toy spy.

"The things he says in 'FFVII' are random, but he shows extraordinary ability, such as getting the destination exactly right in 'BC.'"

So, sure, he seems to get some things right (at least on the one occasion where he responded with a direct answer rather than an ambiguous one), but the same line that says this also says he was saying ridiculous stuff in FFVII. "Tekito" is a word that doesn't make a perfect transition to English, but is used in the context of guessing or winging it. It can also imply nonsense.

From the sound of it, that matches the FFVII Ultimania Omega's description of his ability as "dubious," as well as the outright declaration that most of his predictions are wrong. Hell, as you quoted, on pg. 120 of the book, it even says "Disregarding the previous two, the noticeable one is the third result" concerning the location of Sephiroth.

That doesn't sound like it means we're supposed to take stock of the first two as anything but random filler.

I'm not sure where you're getting "innate specialty" from, by the way. "Tokugi" means "special skill."

You didn't see what I typed apparently:

In the first place, this idea of a fortune being correct "at the time" and changing the "path of destiny" assumes metaphysical mechanics about Cait Sith's fortune-telling that we couldn't possibly know, and is certainly never implied by anything within the game or official books.

For that matter, you've been using the "you will lose something dear" prediction as evidence that the later prediction about the two having a bright future is reliable. If the first prediction refers to Aerith's death, then how was she not already on the "path of destiny" that resulted in her death?

And if the first prediction, then, wasn't reliable at the time it was made -- because Aerith's "path of destiny" changed such that she had a wedding with Cloud coming -- only to eventually become correct later, that just casts the whole thing into a paradoxical realm of random, unreliable nonsense that shifts to suit whatever argument is being made at the time.

And, again, how can you assume to know enough about the metaphysical mechanics of something like this to argue when a "path of destiny" changes, or that an earlier prediction wouldn't account for every upcoming decision? That's the idea of fortune-telling: everything that's going to happen is known to the fortune.

Heck, in most fiction, attempting to change the "path of destiny," as you call it, usually ends up causing it. See "the boy who lived" for an example.

In short, where does this "path of destiny" idea even come from as far as FFVII is concerned?

She didn't say that. She said "It's true that we weren't THAT close." I have several friends from work that I would describe that way -- but I'd still call them my friends.

Or maybe it means exactly what it says, since Japanese does have a word for "acquaintance" that could have been used on those few dozen occasions instead.

For that matter, you'd think that it would have been used in place of "childhood friends" at least once if that's what was really intended.

If we're just going to decide that statements from SE mean whatever we want them to, why not take something like "engraved in Cloud's heart" to mean "his mind is marred with the negative memory of the person, because taking a chisel to someone's heart would be a bad thing"?

Why not just assume something means exactly what it says -- especially when it's been said dozens of times?

If you take a comprehensive analysis -- which would inevitably include the "dubious" and "mostly inaccurate" comments, as well as the statement that the things he says in FFVII are random/nonsensical -- then, yes, you absolutely can.

And, in fact, should, given that "dubious" and "mostly inaccurate" were no doubt said for a reason, and that the same is certainly true of "tekito."

Well innate means "originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience." So he just naturally had this ability that's his skill... that's a special skill

Although I wondered what "His ability is shown as tickets" meant XD

Yeah, but a skill is something learned or developed through experience. Otherwise, it's a talent. XD

So back at you. <3

Yeah, apparently "tekito" was taken to mean "tickets" in the other translation, and the "show" part was applied to the wrong clause.