Koibito Discussion, From the 3rd page :D

Hmm... 1st of all I would like to say Hello and I hope I didnt do anything wrong by posting this topic @.@ Also.. I would like to apologize for my bad english as it is not my main language >.> Im quite new here so if I am boring you with a little bit of introduction about myself =o then please scroll down and go straight to my questions =D

I have been a huge clerith fan since i was little ._. Since the 1st time my brother play ff7 (when it 1st came out in english version). Unlike most of the people here, I have never played FF7, FF Tactics, Crisis Core, KH, KH2 etc etc. but I have watch my bro play ff7 to know the basic storyline of FF7 . The ending of the game gave me quite an impact to the point I keep my tabs on clerith info through wiki and various sites ._. Actually @.@ I have always assume clerith is cannon until ff ac. Probably due to the culture in my country. I've never stumble across a cloti or someone who assume cloti is cannon (believe it or not >.>;;;). I only come across this whole LT thing when I was looking for ff ac info (I wasnt satisfied with the ending). I stumble into the whole forum debate thing which makes me doubt the whole clerith is cannon belief. So I look here and there for infos. Thats when I stumble across Devotion/Destiny Fulfilled website. Its the only clerith site that give actual facts and reasonable theories unlike other website that gives "cloti is cannon coz aerith is dead!!" kind of reason or "clerith is cannon coz they look good together!!"(I only look for truths and facts). I read every essays there is in Devotion to satisfy my curiousity ._. Then from that site, i stumble into this forum and have been its lurker ever since. >.> I never become a member or whatsoever, just read every single interesting topic abt clerith and evidence discussion (mostly the things i cant find on devotion or ff_goddess website). And now i am out in the open (feels like a stalker) to ask a few questions, pov and prespective regarding the things i've read the past few weeks. The answers that i cant find just by reading unfortunately >.> (prefer to stay a lurker) Perhaps the things that im looking for has been answered in this forum or others but i dun have the time to look every single inch of every forum >.< So I would like to say Thank you in advance for tolerating a newbie like myself and taking time to read my post :< Just treat me like a student T_T Also, I would like to thank ff_goddess, devotion site owner, the fabulous essays writers, and the existance of this forum =D




QUESTIONS :

1) Calling

From what I've read from devotion and this forum, it is imply that cloud met aerith in the flowerfield in Calling.
The 1st time i watch that video which i think is last year or 2 years ago, i never got that impression, i just thought "HEY!!! AERITH IS IN THE VIDEO AND NOT TIFA!!! =D" but the video ended with picture of him with tifa and the gang >.> *cough* I never notice the yellow flowers nor the flowerfield pictures. I must be blind coz there are more than a dozen of them
The 2nd .... alot of time after i read ff_goddess and anastar analysis, I noticed, but towards the ending where the camera refuse to follow cloud, I was like "NUUUUUU CLOUD DUN GO!!! YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO MEET AERITH!!!!!!!!!" I was following the tiny dot to see if it stops but it never did and the screen went black. So my point basically is that the only thing that convinced me that cloud and aerith actually met in the flowerfields are the dozen pics and the yellow flower on cloud's desk.

How did you know Cloud actually meet or sees aerith in the flowerfield?
How big is the Flower field?
Coz i dun see the tiny dot stop >.>;;;;


2) Reminiscence (Directing this question specifically to ff_goddess/anastar)

I read from wiki that the 4th Call from Barret wasnt actually a call and it was cloud that open the package. It is a conversation between Cloud and Barret when cloud went to barret's place. Somewhere inside this forum, someone said it was a call(dont remember who >.<) though I hear no sound that indicates that cloud is still riding and taking a call.

Also from the site :

I have been learning japanese for a long time and have a decent understanding of the japanese language. From my ear, not relying on translations, it seems that cloud is the one who opened it coz barret sound so shocked when cloud open the package so fast ._. like 1 second after he asked whats in it, haha XD. So im quite confuze with what the site says coz it contradicts my knowledge of that scene :<

Can anyone clarify this?

And

Is there any indication or pic of this situation?


3) When Cloud smiles

The part when cloud said "im not alone anymore" and aerith walk out of the church. To me, it seems as if aerith has finish her job here and she is not coming back >.>;; for some reason thats the impression that i got which brings me to hunt-clerith-evidence-mode >.<;;

Is it only me? T_T


4) Regarding Kingdom Hearts

This is one of the topic that worries me the most. I've read almost everything that this forum and devotion has to offer abt Cloud's light. Before I stumble into devotion, i've read from wikis, other sources. 1 site says aerith = light and another says sephiroth = light and another says tifa = light. That sure makes me more confuze than ever @.@ Even though all the explanation here is good, it still bothers me. If we can negate the quote from nomura that to cloud tifa is light, then they sure can negate the quote that says if sepiroth exist then so must aerith that almost everyone here believe to be true(including me ). So pretend that the nomura's interview doesnt exist. If we can say cloud is running away from tifa in kh2, they can say cloud didnt exactly bring his "light" to battle with his darkness =/ Pretend that this thing is irrelevant too,

Is there solid indication that aerith = light? o.o
Oh by = light i meant = cloud's light =D Bear in mind that I never play kh1&2 :< So abit of explanation here and there would be most lovely


5) Cloti's Reason

Since i never debate abt the LT, I never actually read that much abt Cloti's reason. I actually went on a short journey to find cloti's site that is equivalent to Clerith's Devotion but sadly i never find one. Im trying to see from both POV to confirm my beliefs in Clerith. So, Pushing aside the shallow reasons

What does clotis actually see in cloti?
Of coz reasons that we can actually accept as "hey thats a good undeniable reason" is what im looking for.... not "Oh Aerith died, tifa is left thats y" ;; Seriously i think those ppl watch too much pocahontas movie that they think just coz the partner died or u think they died u can just move on


6) Role reversal ._.

So.. From what i read in this forum, clotis always say that cloud only felt guilty of aerith dying in ff ac, thats y he was depress and gloomy. Well that makes me think that would cloud act the same way if it was tifa who died infront of him and not aerith?

What do you guys think would actually happen in ff ac if tifa actually dies in ff7 instead of aerith?


Ok im done with my questions... for now. Im sorry if i offended anyone here with my questions. I dont mean to contradict anyone, just needed clarification and the nature of how one come out with this conclusion or what not :< Just curious >.<
No need to answer everything @.@ even 1 question is enough Any answer would be helpful. Ty

Hiya Saeki!
I'll try and see if I can offer some answers quickly.
You don't actually see Cloud and Aerith meet in the flowerfield, but I definitely got the impression he was going to meet her and that she was waiting. You see his bike parked at the side of the road during reminiscence, and I see no reason for him to be in that particular random flowerfield, the only significant thing about it is that Aerith is seen there. Like everything in FFVII concerning the LT, it's let up to interpretation, but it's a pretty big Clerith hint no?

Cloud asks Tifa to close the shop tomorrow on the phone, I'm not sure whether he is speaking directly to her or leaving a message, you don't hear her speak.

Aerith does say everything is alright now, but note Cloud's response....I know, I'm not alone anymore. Add this to Nomura's quotes about Cloud seeing and interacting with Aerith because she lives on in his consciousness and it becomes more significant. He is obviously referring to Aerith, as he already acknowledges that Tifa and his allies are there, he has been staying with Tifa after all. It's not like it is the last time you see Aerith in the movie either, you see her during Calling, along with evidence that Cloud still holds her dear (the flowers taking centre stage, all the pictures)

Tifa is never stated as being Cloud's light in KH2. What was said that if Sephiroth is darkness then Tifa is light. It's preposterous ass-pullage if you ask me, KH is confusing enough, Cloud is supposedly searching for his light, and if his light is Tifa why is he running away from her? Aerith also said his light would lead him back here, so Tifa is going to lead Cloud back to her love rival? There is no proof that Aerith is his light either, I find it annoying that people use this in LT. Cloud has his own light, his own inner strength, as he shows time and time again....he needs no one to be his light.

As per Cloti reasons, as I am not one I'm not stating my opinion as gospel truth. From what I come across there are many reasons. In FFVII you choose which girl you want Cloud to interact with, so naturally if you don't like Aerith, you aren't going to want her with Cloud. Also, some people might sympathize with Tifa more, since you have it put into your head that they were always close, yet Tifa's insecurity prevents her from expressing her feelings. To add insult to injury along comes sassy flirty Aerith who has the nerve to have already had a boyfriend, who overshadows her. The Aerith is dead so it has to be Tifa argument is a common reason, as it is more believable in terms of logic....but the game ain't final logic is it? Also Tifa has her creepy fanboys who think that she is hawt and that Cloud is obviously a huge horn-dog and a boob crazed maniac.

Cloud did think that Tifa died in front of him when Sephiroth stabbed her. He says "I thought you were a goner, I was really sad" when Tifa asked him. From what I saw his reaction wasn't as extreme as when Aerith died, however he was under the impression that Tifa and him were more close than they actually were, so I think he would have been devastated at her death if it had been Tifa. I think there's already a topic on these lines here.

Hi Saeki, and welcome to the forum. Let me try to answer your questions as best I can.

As Vixie says, you never see Cloud stop at the flowerfield during Calling, but you do see the flowers on his desk, which means he stopped there. Reminiscence is also happening while Cloud is riding around on his motorcycle during Calling. During Reminiscence, you see his motorcycle stopped next to the flowerfield. So it's quite obvious that he stopped there. While he's parked there, Tifa calls him, and he says he'll be home later. Sounds to me like he's not rushing to get away from the flowerfield, so he must be planning to spend some time there.

So we know Cloud is there, and we know Aerith is there. If Cloud stopped at the flowerfield where Aerith was shown to be waiting for him during Calling, then why wouldn't they meet? They were able to see one another during AC, so what would keep them from meeting one another in the flower field? Why would Cloud be spending time at the flowerfield if he wasn't able to see Aerith?

I have been learning japanese for a long time and have a decent understanding of the japanese language. From my ear, not relying on translations, it seems that cloud is the one who opened it coz barret sound so shocked when cloud open the package so fast ._. like 1 second after he asked whats in it, haha XD. So im quite confuze with what the site says coz it contradicts my knowledge of that scene :<

Can anyone clarify this?

During Reminiscence, Cloud is still on Fenrir going down the highway when the Barret conversation takes place. It happens just like the other phone calls from Vincent, Cid, and Yuffie. Cloud isn't at Barret's place when the Barret phone call plays.

Is there any indication or pic of this situation?

Aha... I meant that Aerith was shown to be waiting in the flower field during Calling. Since Reminiscence is essentially a "close up" of what happens during Calling, and Aerith was shown to be waiting in the flower field during Calling, then she's also there during Reminiscence - right? Perhaps I need to rephrase that sentence. Thanks for pointing it out.

As far as a pic of it, there's a pic on the site where Cloud's motorcycle is shown parked next to the flower field. That pic is from Reminiscence.

Well, she obviously *does* come back, since we see her in Calling.

You have to remember that wiki is written by fans, not experts. What you find on wiki isn't necessarily official information. Sometimes the info on wiki is reliable, sometimes it's not.

As Vixie said, if Tifa is Cloud's light, then why does Cloud run away from her in KH2?

The theme of KH2 is very different from the theme of KH1. In KH1, many couples who have been separated try to find one another. Aladdin tries to find Vixie, Beast tries to find Beauty, Sora tries to find Kairi, Simba tries to find his mate, Tarzan tries to find Jane... there's many males who try to find their female romantic interests throughout the course of the game. During that game, Cloud tells Sora that he's lost his light, and that he's trying to find it. Cloud is shown reuniting with Aerith at the end of the game.

In KH2, no couples are trying to find one another. However, there are other characters who are struggling with darkness vs. light within themselves. For example, Sora struggles with understanding his own inner light and darkness when he learns about his other self, the Nobody Roxas. Hercules loses confidence and falls into depression after making a huge mistake during a battle. In his depression, he's surrounded by darkness, and he has to struggle against in order to find his confidence again. Similar problems happen to Simba and Beast during the game, so that they are also portrayed as struggling with issues of darkness vs. light within themselves. That makes it more likely that Cloud is struggling with the same issues himself.

So basically, KH1 is the game where light = your romantic interest. That's not true in KH2.

Since I'm not a Cloti, I'm not going to try to explain their viewpoints. There's Cloti websites out there, so I'd recommend finding one of those. However, there's already a topic about how Cloud would react if Tifa had died instead of Aerith. That thread is here: What if Tifa had been the one to die?.

I hope that helps. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Of coz it helps~! thx for the lovely reply and the link to the thread vixie & anastar u guys deserve a flower!!

Thats what i thought initially that cloud actually stop next to the flowerfield in that pic but that pic (the one with his bike parked) is shown when he is talking to barret. I got the impression that he stopped to meet barret. Or am i wrong? Also the field look more grassy than the flower field shown for the last call which is the same place where the camera stop following cloud in calling. Explain please @.@ Yea it is a pretty big clerith hint especially with the pics scattered all over the desk How could i be so blind >.>;;

Im sorry but i still am not convince of this. From what i observe from the video in youtube. Unless this is the wrong video then i guess i can just run away and hide >.<;

Reminiscence Part 1 Yuffie & Cid
Reminiscence Part 2 Vincent
Reminiscence Part 3 Barret & Tifa

1st (A voice message from Yuffie) :

There's no ring, There's no sound that indicate cloud pick up the phone or a beep, There is the sound of the wind and the sound of motorcycle, There is no sound of the phone being hang up or beep after the message is over.

2nd (From Cid) :

There is a ring, There is a sound that indicate cloud picked up the phone and a beep, There is the sound of the wind and the sound of motorcycle, There is no sound of the phone being hang up or beep after the conversation.

3rd (From Vincent) :

There is a ring, There is a sound that indicate cloud picked up the phone and a beep, There is the sound of the wind and the sound of motorcycle, There is a sound of the phone being hang up and a beep after the conversation.

4th (Barret) :

There is no ring, There is no sound that indicate cloud picked up the phone or a beep, There is the sound of the wind but no sound of motorcycle, There is no sound of the phone being hang up or beep after the conversation.

5th (From Tifa) :

There is a ring, There is a sound that indicate cloud picked up the phone and a beep, There is the sound of the wind (similar with the one in barret's conversation) but no sound of motorcycle, There is a sound of the phone being hang up and a beep after the conversation.

So from this observation, when the 4th conversation took place, wouldnt the fact that there is no sound of cloud riding his motorcycle be consistent with the picture presented at that time (his motorcycle parked next to a field)? :< Or am i alone in this? >.<
Also.... The conversation just seem to weird to be a phone call. Why would barret say "Deliver this to Marlene and this to Denzel... And Yuffie told me to give you this."? Wouldnt normal phone call in this case be "Theres 2 packages i need u to deliver. It is for marlene and danzel. Also you have 1 package from yuffie" instead? How would cloud know what barret is referring to by this and this.
From his japanese conversation "Kore wo Marlene, Kocchi wa Denzel ni todekete kure" Kore and Kocchi are both words to indicate things and location that are near to the person speaking. In this case the packages are near barret. So when he is saying "Kore wo Marlene", It seems as if he is handing the package to cloud or pointing at the package near him. Then he talks abt Danzel's, still using the same type of word "Kocchi wa Denzel ni", meaning that the package is near him also. It just not make sense to differ the packages to cloud when he cant even see them. Also as I have pointed out before, barret was shocked before the inside of the package is revealed.

Barret said "Woah, bit early!" before he knows what is inside. So the "Woah, bit early!" is said when he refered to cloud opening the thing. It would be weird for him to be shock when he open it quickly. ._. y would he be shock if it is his intention in the 1st place? Also the adjective used in this word is hayai. It could mean both early and fast. Barret also said "Maybe if you open...". In the english context it could mean maybe if he himself open or maybe if cloud open. But in japanese "Akete mirebatte yo na". Barret was repeating what Yuffie said regarding to the content of the box, "If you open it you will know". So the translation could also be "She didnt say. She said If you open it you will know." Another thing is Barret was interupted. He didnt exactly finish saying what he wanted to say. I dont see how barret would interupt himself as if he is talking and his hand act by itself and open the box without his consent o.O That is why i cant see the fact that Barret open the box himself =/ Unless someone can explain...

Im pretty sure he is speaking directly to her. The way he talk in that call is pretty clear that tifa is at the other side of the line. If not then i'd say they have a pretty deep connection for cloud to expect what tifa would say @.@; which is unlikely >.>; There is a ring 1st, then a beep with a sound of a flip handphone being open. So he is recieving a call not leaving a message.

He.... HE IS EMBRACING HIS FETISHNESS FOR FLOWERS!! >.< jk XD Oh 1 thing i wonder though. What makes cloud buy the flowers from aerith back in game other than the fact that the players make him do it? =o

That makes sense. Now I can put my doubt of kh to rest Funny how i was about to ask Vixie stuff and Anastar explain it all XD Speaking of Kingdom Heart, Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days is about what happen between kingdom heart 1 and 2 right? Are the ff characters making cameo again? If they did does that mean there might be scene between cloud's and aerith's reunion? =o

You're talking about KH 358/2 Days. It's a game, that like CoM, takes place between KH1 and KH2. It's basically a game to show what happened to Roxas while he existed as a Nobody working for Org. XIII- before he was in Twilight Town. I'm not sure if they've revealed any FF characters that are making cameos. It's possible they will, but to find out for sure you should check out a KH site that continually updates with new info and magazine articles. Since this game deals with Roxas, I'm pretty certain that we'll be seeing more of the Org. characters than anything else, though we could see some of the FF guys. Who knows?

Now, in regards to Reminiscence, I think it's pretty clear that the entire thing with Cloud recieving the phone calls takes place while Cloud is on the road and at the flowerfield. Those are the scenes that are shown- while Cloud is not shown IN them, the thing is they are shown in accompaniment to his voice, so it's logical to assume he's there. If he were to be at a place, like Seventh Heaven, for example, they would show scenes of that place. Cloud is alone this entire time- I never got the impression at all that he was with anyone else, Barret included, during the time frames we were shown. Just because you didn't hear the motorcycle or a ring or a hang up doesn't mean anything- considering the rest of the conversations take place on the phone while Cloud's on the road, it's logical that this conversation is no different. We're also only geting bits and pieces of the conversations- so when Barret says 'pick up this and this for Marlene and Denzel' it's probably something they've discussed before.

Ty for the reply Alantie You deserve a flower too

I dont doubt that he is on the road and at the flowerfield. I dont doubt that he indeed meet Aerith there while he is taking tifa's call. Im not saying that he is at seventh heaven or other places. What i am saying is only that the place the 4th conversation took place at the side of the road could be where he meet barret as like i mention that might not be a flower field. it look more grassy :<

time frames? o.O what u mean?

Well. It could also be logical that if it was a call there would be a ring and a beep or smtg. Y did every call has a ring/beep but suddenly that one doesnt? Pushing aside the beep ring the sounds in the video. It still doesnt explain why barret was shock/he was interupted. o.o

Very honestly, I'm going to have to re-watch it to check on it. I don't have a cable connection, so it takes forever for me to download it on YouTube.

However, if you think Cloud *did* meet Aerith in the flower field, then why does it matter where he was when he got Barret's call?

And, if you ask me, I see flowers along the side of the road (in the green circles), as well as near the street sign on the left, as well as behind the tree line to the left.

Cloud's motorcycle

Furthermore, those flowers are the same color as the flowers on his desk:

Flowers on desk

Becoz if i want to debate about the LT to someone, i want facts and not speculation. I mean speculation is fine but it must be accompanied by undeniable evidence. So when i read devotion site, the part with calling and reminiscence i thought it was beautiful but just a few stuff like this barret thing that seems to be off to me. So i want clarification. if indeed that i was wrong abt this then its good. If not then wouldnt devotion be a site that has facts which is twisted around like cloti's? Plus u shouldnt just take things without doubt =o then you would just be gullible right? But if im totally alone in this, i'll accept that i am wrong

I must be blind #.# Too much yellow that i cant see anything >.< I guess they do look like flower =o

Okay, I'll look at the video and get back to you in the morning, okay? In the meantime, let's hope some other people post and give their opinions on this.

However, what I meant was that IF you feel confident that Cloud did meet with Aerith in the flowerfield, then why does it matter when he met her? So what if it was during Barret's call or Tifa's call or at some other time?

Yea sure No rush.

Ahh... Did I give that impression? @.@; No I wasnt worried about when at all =o Hmmm what did i say that make it seem that way? x.x; That didnt even cross my mind at all @.@;;;;; T_T No wonder Alantie was talking about time frame >.< I was totally confuze with it.

First of all, if you want absolute 100% factual evidence when it comes to Reminiscence, you will be very disappointed. It is as vague as it can get. This is why it can't be properly used as solid, indefinite evidence for any romantic couple, coming from a neutral fan.

Now this is my view of what people are discussing here.

There is no evidence that Cloud is at "Barret's place", only that him and Barret met up along the road. I do believe they are in the same place with the packages, and the little "what's the rush" (according to the subtitles, not "a bit early") comment could be about Cloud trying to leave early. That's one interpretation. Now I'm not sure what people are trying to say about the flowerfield and where Cloud and Barret were because I believe that he stopped two different times in two different places. D:

Saeki -

Okay, I watched Reminiscence again this morning, and you're right. This screenshot is showing while he's talking to Barret. I remembered it very differently! Sorry about that - you were right all along!

Regardless of that, I still see flowers next to where Cloud's motorcycle is sitting on the road.

While he's talking to Tifa, though, there's a clear picture of the flowerfield on either side of the road. Plus, there's no movement, so he has stopped at the flowerfield. I just had the wrong screenshot on the site!

Thank you for pointing that out. I'll get it corrected!

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure if anyone else here thought that Barret and Cloud met up some where.

@Anastar
Do you mean This picture?
I uploaded it, for you all if none of you didn't already have it.

Actually, now that I've re-watched Reminiscence, I can see what Saeki means. You see this screenshot:

Fenrir parked beside road

while Cloud's talking with Barret. It *does* sound like they're talking face to face rather than on a cellphone. I had remembered that Cloud was shown riding on Fenrir while he was talking with Barret, but Saeki's right. He's talking with Barret during the screen above.

Yes, that's the one I mean. Thanks, but I spent about 45 minutes downloading it at YouTube to get the screenshot. That is the screenshot of Cloud while talking with Tifa:

Phone call with Tifa

However, there's no movement as if Cloud's riding on Fenrir. He's actually stopped at the flowerfield.

One other thing that I noticed while watching it again: Did you all realize that this scene of Cloud stopped at the flowerfield happens shortly after Reminiscence has Cloud saying, "I think I can find her.... there" in FFVII? He says that, then the scene with the Lifestream washing over Meteor happens, then you see him stopped at the flowerfield.

I wonder if that's why SE changed the translation of Cloud's words from "I think I can meet her... there" to "I think I can find her... there" in Reminiscence?

*Scratches head* Looks like I wasn't much help, Saeki. Sorry, but I was out of town. Besides, it looks like everyone else pretty much answered your questions. Let me know if I can help out with other questions, though.