Question Regarding The Pairings In This Game...

While I'm a huge FFVII fan, and have been here a while, there's a certain subject I haven't really discussed, even outside these forums... Zerith. Until now, I've not given it a whole lot of thought, but after seeing for myself that so many Zerith shippers exist out there, I think it's high time I started getting my head around this issue.

I was reading the topic about Aeris' ACC profile in one of the other topics here... and unfortunately, subjected myself to all those posts where they were squeeing over the mere mention of Aeris and Zack together. I for one have never understood the whole Zack x Aeris thing. AFAIC, if you go back to FFVII itself, actually play it and pay attention to it, it's pretty obvious to me that the game is about Cloud and Aeris. Zack is only used for two scenes that flesh out Cloud's backstory.

"So why all the Zerith fans?" I ask myself.

Then it occured to me... while there have always been Zerith fans, it was nothing like it is today back when FFVII came out. It seems like it's just been in the last few years that there's been a real influx of them. Perhaps due to AC and CC?

But then that's just my observations. I could be wrong. I didn't seriously start paying attention to this stuff on the internet until around 2000 or so, maybe three or four years after FFVII itself came out (and what bliss that was, to only have FFVII itself to go on, to be blissfully unaware that people seriously paired Cloud and Aeris with characters other than themselves).

So here's my question... do you think AC... and more particularly CC, since it's an actual game and puts a lot more emphasis on the possibility of Zerith... do you think Zerith has arisen because there are so many people now who played CC before FFVII itself (or never played FFVII at all?)? Or perhaps is it because people's minds were changed by CC? Or heck... maybe it's the preferred pairing of people who love CC but dislike FFVII itself (of which I learned recently there's a surprising number of people out there to whom this applies, one of which is someone I know).

I dunno, this is one aspect of FFVII's love triangles that's never made any sense to me. I can see and understand people pairing Cloud with Tifa, even if I don't agree with it. But this... I just don't get it. Never have. As such, I'd hugely appreciate it if anyone is willing to give me some insight on this

There have always been hardcore Clotis that have also shipped Zeris from back when the original game was the only thing out but yeah I see what you mean, I think Crisis Core has a lot to do with it and also Zack appearing in Advent Children raised questions for some people as well (but then there was Calling) Myself I never saw much into Zeris or even Zack himself in FFVII originally but Square Enix has done a lot of marketing and media for it since then so it's easy to see where people are coming from.

That doesn't however mean that I no longer see Cleris in things that SE releases as well, it looks to me like they might be trying to play all fields

Oh well I still believe Aerith really did come to love Cloud not because of the Zack in him and that Cloud had feelings for Aerith too. Even if Zack has chosen/is always by Aerith's side it doesn't mean that didn't happen~

The explanation is pretty easy to understand. A lot of Cloti fans are Zerith fans, or at least support Zerith as a way to support Cloti; not all of them, but quite a few of them. Attempting to prove Zerith would be their way to trying to disprove Clerith.

Seriously though... I would be willing to bet that 99% of all Zerith fans are Cloti fans as well.

It's been obvious since Cloti's have given us that "Aeris and Zack at the end of AC" argument for the longest time. CC was just another thing they tried to push on us, knowing full well that it was a prequel that just gave depth to these characters and didn't change their roles in the original FFVII.

Meh-

Ah, so maybe it's simpler than I thought. If Aeris is with Zack, she's not with Cloud (though even that is debatable IMHO), and that's obviously good for the Clotis.

My problem is, Zack had such a small role in FF7 itself, and Aeris never even mentioned him by name despite having adequate reason to, and not knowing that it would have any affect on Cloud the way Tifa did. Seriously, Zack was only in two scenes, and both of them were to further CLOUD'S development, not his own (i.e. the final flashback shows that there's no way Cloud was emulating him, their personalities are polar opposites). Yet now he's treated with more respect than the other 99% of the cast that had more impact on the plot.

For crying out loud. It's almost like pairing Rinoa with Seifer (*gag*) in FF8 just because they USED to be going out. Heck, it's worse... Rinoa actually DOES mention Seifer, so by Zerith standards, there's even more evidence for that pairing than Zerith itself. Yet, you don't see anyone question Squinoa (except die hard Quistis fans, but that's another story...).

Geez. Even though I don't agree with Zerith at all, I was really hoping there was more to it than simple Clerith spite. @_@

Well, I think Zeris is there as a good alternative to get out of the big LT and you have to agree it was past canon and least and many believe it continues on. Zeris is easier to prove canon it seems because it was the most official couple in all of VII. Aeris actually stated that she dated him, where is Cloud got a date, but sadly even if she is the main bachelorette it is still optional. I think one of the main contributers of peoples liking of a pairing is pulled off of it's officiality.

For example, many people who only watched AC it seems like Cloti, and then once they are into it they play CC because it is easier to get than an actually copy of VII so that's what they believe the couples are. Just no, no you are so wrong I tell them. Everyone is a bit OOC in the spin-offs that's why i just stick to the original a big chunk of the time. Where as people who played actual VII usually pick either Cloti or Cleris and the ones that I KNOW who liked Zeris at that time hate it now that CC came out. Why? Because it was a lame ass watered down version of Cleris. They thought maybe Zack was her knight and they did lots together. No...all they did was talk a little and flirt a bit, to succesfully make their way into puppy love.

I really agree with that. -sigh- I like Cloti. I do think the relationship has it's good attributes, but it's not perfect. But Zeris I don't know how to feel on it. I think I just like Aerith single or maybe with an emo so that helps, also I never viewed her as the pin on the past girl and dating Zack still kinda does that. Als, a good chunk of Clotis i know(not all i shouldn't be biased..) like Zeris and use many ideas from that relationship to make Cloti more appealing like "Cloud must love Tifa, cause Aeris loves Zack" just better than that because they are not that ignorant. U_U. Though I do know some committed Zeris fans that don't like Cloti.

All in all, I think that Zeris, got more lovable because of the canon points of it not so much the interest in the relationship, after CC came out. It was past canon so that could possibly deem it present canon even though I disagree.

Lol, well I'll try to keep this post positive. So in answer to the original post, yes I think Crisis Core has changed many from Clerith's to Zerith's or from no opinion to Zerith's. I don't think that AC had much of an effect though. Here's my story. I love Final Fantasy, and always have. I played FF 7 years ago when it first came out. It's been so long, but I was a mild Clerith. By mild I mean that I felt they belonged together, but I wasn't obsessed with the whole thing. I like tragic love, and I could identify with their union. They seemed like two lost souls reaching out for someone, or something, and they found each other. I was a lost soul myself so I identified a lot with Cloud. I was mad when she died. I never forgave Squaresoft for it either. I lost interest in the game, and Cloud. I think my favorite character after Aerith was Red XIII. I ended up finishing the game, but half-heartedly so. Years after playing, the song "Aerith's theme," would still bring tears to my eyes. Final Fantasy 7 ended up being one of my least favorite of the series. I never played 8, or 11, but I played all the rest of them. I watched AC years ago when it came out, and I enjoyed it, but I don't remember feeling anything romantic happening between any of the characters. Keep in mind, I was still pro-Clerith at the time. I picked up Crisis Core on a whim not expecting to like it because I didn't like FF 7 much. It got good reviews, and I had a PSP so I figured why not. I only remembered Zack as dying in FF 7, and Cloud taking his identity, and that was it. I didn't like him, or hate him, or feel that he liked Aerith much. Then I played Crisis Core, and I found myself totally engrossed in his story. Zack is such an awesome guy! I very much felt the love between Zack, and Aerith. Surprisingly Crisis Core made me like Cloud more. Lol, I won't go into it here because that's against forum rules. It should be noted that the Debate forum is under construction now though. Anyway, ever since I've been looking at fanfiction, forums, and art dedicated to the Zerith pairing. It seems that there is a growing interest in the Zerith pairing. Granted, there is still much interest in Clerith, but the number of Zerith's is growing. Especially since Crisis Core only came out a year ago. I may get a warning for this post, but I didn't intend to bash anyone. I just wanted to answer the original post honestly. Sadly, I have seen lots of Zack bashing on this site. Poor guy, he really doesn't deserve that. . .

And we accept Zerith as a canon pairing of the past, as stated in the forum rules. However, SE has made it clear now that Aerith moved on from her relationship with Zack before FFVII. In case you haven't read it, look for Case of Lifestream-White in our ACC Spoilers Forum. There's a blatant statement in one of Nojima's stories that makes it clear that Aerith had moved on from Zack to love Cloud. Depending on the translation, it can also mean that a mutual love existed between Cloud and Aerith. Best take any further discussion of it to the Case of Lifestream thread in the ACC Spoiler Forum, however.

Yes, but it should reopen soon.

Funny, I haven't seen any. Most people here love Zack.

When I said I felt the love between Zack, and Aerith I meant that I felt it was stronger than Clerith, which meant I converted from Clerith to Zerith. Many, but not all Clerith's acknowledge the love that Zack and Aerith had. I converted from the thinking that Cloud and Aerith were each other's true loves to the notion that Zack and Aerith were each other's true loves after playing Crisis Core. Ha, ha, yes I have read Nojima's new novella, "Case of Lifestream White." I have my own opinions on that, but I'm not allowed to share because this is a pro-Clerith forum. I dare say that is probably the strongest argument for Clerith. I don't think that novella really converted any Zerith's to Clerith's though, or at least not in the way that Crisis Core converted Clerith's to Zerith's. My post wasn't meant to argue about why I believe in the Zerith pairing, but to answer that yes there is an increasing number of Zerith's since Crisis Core, and that I am one of them

Well, I'd recommend that you take any further arguments about it to the Northern Crater when it re-opens. A friend of mine who's taking over the forum as the main admin is working on changing stuff like the forum rules, finding more staff, and re-organizing the forums before it re-opens. I wouldn't expect it to take very long.

In the meantime, please remember that this forum endorses Clerith only.

Well I personally never gave Zerith a second thought until Crisis Core came out. It's so vague in FFVII and made it seem like it wasn't even a big deal. Then CC came out and I guess I changed my mind about it. I haven't played it but I've seen some of the cut scenes involving the two and they are pretty cute together. I know I have a married Aerith and Zack in one of my Sims families

One thing I don't get though is when Zack dies it shows Aerith in Crisis Core looking upward as if she knows he's died... but in FFVII it's implied that she doesn't know what happened to him.

Well I personally never gave Zerith a second thought until Crisis Core came out. It's so vague in FFVII and made it seem like it wasn't even a big deal. Then CC came out and I guess I changed my mind about it. I haven't played it but I've seen some of the cut scenes involving the two and they are pretty cute together. I know I have a married Aerith and Zack in one of my Sims families

One thing I don't get though is when Zack dies it shows Aerith in Crisis Core looking upward as if she knows he's died... but in FFVII it's implied that she doesn't know what happened to him.

Well that's open to interpretation. The way Final Fantasy Wiki interprets it is that she is most likely in severe denial. Here's my interpretation. One of the better arguments for the fact that Aerith probably knew about Zack's death was that she knew about Elmyra's husband's death. If she could sense that as a child, then she most likely sensed Zack's death as an adult. Plus the fact that she had a horrified look on her face, and put her hands up in prayer as Zack's life was slowly draining away. That viewpoint does make her seem a bit callous in FF 7 though, which is why a lot of people think she was in denial. When Elmyra meets Cloud she doesn't like him because she said that Aerith was hurt very bad by someone in SOLDIER. Aerith told Cloud her relationship with Zack wasn't serious, but why would she be hurt so bad if it wasn't serious, you know. If I remember correctly there's a message you get from the Zack fan club after Zack's confirmed death, and the flower girl refuses to believe it. Her wagon breaks, and she won't let anyone fix it because she's waiting for Zack to come back and do it. You should play Crisis Core because it's an awesome game! Cloud, Aerith, and Zack are all so cute My interpretation is just that, an interpretation, and not fact.

Well unfortunately I don't have a PSP so playing it is out. But as I said I've seen a bit of it on youtube. I heard it's the best of the spin offs though, so I'd like to give it a shot.

Not sure how in denial Aerith was, if you ask me it was just another case of Square contradicting themselves again. Like in Last Order where Sephiroth suicides and Tifa wakes up to see Cloud.

Yes, ha, ha, Last Order did have many contradictions. Sephiroth just jumping into the reactor was a little silly. I didn't see the whole Aerith sensing Zack's death as strong of a contradiction as Sephiroth jumping into the Mako reactor, but that's just my opinion. That's fine if you don't like my interpretation. Not everyone sees it that way. It's just the way I like to think about it. That's too bad you don't have a PSP because watching the scenes isn't half as good as playing the whole game ' The game has amazing graphics for being just a PSP game too.

Hmmm ... I dunno ... did Aerith look up before or after Cloud died? Maybe she just sensed someone screaming/that *someone* died The reason that Aerith knew about Elmyra's husband specifically is because he was on his way to meet her when he died and I got the impression Aerith actually conversed with him in a sense to find that out. I don't think Aerith actually "met" Zack when he died so we don't know for sure that she knew it was him for sure.

My take on the CC ending is that Aerith sensed something bad happened to Zack, but she wasn't sure what. She looked confused, as if she didn't really understand what it was she was sensing. I don't see this as conflicting with that we see in FFVII or MotP. Aerith says in both sources that she didn't know what happened to Zack, and she was surprised to find out that he was dead when she encounters him in the Lifestream. She knew something happened to him- she just didn't know what it was.

The situation with Elmyra's husband is different. What Aerith says is this:

It doesn't say that Aerith sensed his death. What is actually said is that she knows that his spirit was trying to come to see Elmyra. A better interpretation of this conversation is that what Aerith sensed was his spirit trying to come to say goodbye to Elmyra; she doesn't say she sensed him die. She knows he's dead because she felt the husband trying to come to see Elmyra. It makes more sense that she would sense his spirit approaching and trying to make contact.

Edit: Right, FB. Exactly. : D *glad that someone else thinks of it that way too*

And I'd like to point out, the FF Wiki is a fan made creation, made by fans, edited by fans. Anyone can edit it to suit their interpretation. Don't assume that because they say that Aerith was 'in denial' it's true.

As for Aerith being hurt over Zack- of course you're going to be hurt when your first experience with romance ends up the way hers did. The first boy she liked disappeared and she never saw him again- what person wouldn't be hurt? I'd be more worried if it hadn't bothered her. Aerith saying they weren't serious at the time is an older woman looking back at her first relationship and knowing that they really weren't. She's not saying she doesn't care about him- that's not it at all. She's simply stating that as a romance, they weren't serious.