America's Shameful Human Rights Record

[Texan for Gore]

I think we all evolve, Clay, just not necessarily in the same way. We change our opinions based on new information. We open our eyes to things we didn't see before.

I would like to think I've learned something from each person I've come into contact with - whether good or bad - throughout this journey through life. I know you all have touched my life in one way or another.

Jimmy Carter was one of the good ones. Ironically, I think it was his sense of fairness and such statements as "I say to you quite frankly that the time for racial discrimination is over" that made him a one term president. The status quo doesn't want someone who will actually serve all the people. The Texas GOP is demonstrating that right now - just one of many examples out there.

And even though the world did not start with Bush43 and the Patriot Act, we've got to start from somewhere in getting our act together - in more ways than one. Has history not shown that war is just a more sophicated way of bullying someone else? It's one thing to protect ourselves from harm, but even you don't think guns have a place in protecting oneself. But how often has war been started simply for safety and how often has it been started out of power or economics? I'd say more often the latter than the former.

One thing I find interesting about the OWS movement is them stressing being a leaderless movement and no hierarchy scale - meaning one person is no better than the other. They all serve an equally important role in the movement. There is no "president" or "director" and when there is a scale like that, there tends to be resentment among people when others think they are better than those lower on the totem pole.

If you think back at times when there was a bartering system in place, there was not all that resentment because people all equally helped each other out. They provided a needed service/goods to each other.

And just because Congress authorizes war or drones doesn't make it okay or right and it is usually done at the President's request. Just because the Texas GOP is suggesting the Voting Rights Act be repealed doesn't make it okay either. See what I'm talking about.

What was that you said the other day about the U.S. being a fabled leader or protector of human rights? Maybe the U.S. has been built up to be perceived that way - but that's obviously not true. But does that mean we can't or shouldn't do anything to change that? And I know what you're going to say - that by voting democratic, it will help us get a better SCOTUS and they are more for minorities rights. I'm not disputing that, but when you look at the bigger picture, our whole system is doing despicable things. That needs to change.

[ReElectAlGore2016]

you are advocating for a socialist (REAL SOCIALISM, not any type of socialism that has been in power in Germany or Russia or elsewhere.

France perhaps in 2012 is the closest.

but one cannot have capitalism and socialism at the same time, and one can't say they want to shield the middle class. To have a true system of equality, we need to start with those poorest and bring them to the middle at the same time one would bring the richest down

but Obama or any one cannot say it, because they would be considered an extremist and not get elected (ala Bernie Sanders let's say).

To get anything, one must be elected.
To "burn the entire system down" will NOT in anyway get you the system you are advocating.

BTW- I myself would love a system like that, but I accept it won't happen because the rich will not give up their lifestyle.


When one juxtaposes the OWS with the Gay rights parade, or the early 1960s civil rights marches, one notices something

the OWS is advocating anarchy not socialism, and they quite honestly are snarling and ugly looking.

whereas Dr. King and the civil rights movement and the Gay Pride movement are beautiful and its something as simple as that that marks the big difference.

Which is why in 2012, 1960s methods just don't work, especially with the division of the lesser educated white males, and the ones that are addicted to talk radio and Rush and run to any internet board and write their messages of hate.

If you read, say the drudge board, and follow the comments on the links drudge gives, the hatred for President Obama and Eric Holder and Joe Biden is just awful
(but be happy there are very few people out there and the number gets smaller each year that follows that...which is why in 2012 it really is almost the republicans last stand and they know it (which is why they don't give up the losing racist strategy.)
For all we know, the repliers on those boards anyhow might number less than a few hundred in total, all taking many names all posting one after the other the exact words of Rush Limbaugh.
Looking at his rating numbers for viewers, which Drudge used to reveal each week, but no longer do they(as they don't want those numbers to reach the public and show them how few viewers there actually are), it is why I am confident Obama has this race clinched.

(the difference between democrats and republican pollsters and sites was how quick Kos fired their pollsters four years ago when it was shown their polls were not accurate, yet Rasmussen and Gallup keep going on with their lies, as long as they can set an agenda. The aggragate polling sites should remove both of them from their totals. If you take out Gallup and Ras, there is not one other poll showing Mitt anywhere near the lead.

[Texan for Gore]

I suppose socialism has its pros and cons. One could say that in a capitalist society, that by being promoted, etc, people are rewarded and motivated to do their best, but then again, we also see people rewarded who don't deserve it. Sometimes it's who you are or who you know - rather than by how hard one works.

And I'm not saying to shield the middle class. The poor are the first ones that should be addressed.

With socialism, I'm not sure I like the idea of the people being so dependent on their government. It's hard to know exactly how it would look without actually living in that kind of society.

And it's pretty unrealistic that we would ever have a society like that.

[Wayne in WA State]

I think President Carter is right to raise these concerns. But drones are not a simple issue. On the one hand I'm sure Pakistan actually does permit US drones to be used in private at the same time they complain about them in public. Drones reduce the risk to our pilots and other members of the military which is a significant concern. Additionally the collateral damage they cause, though terrible, may be less than sending in soldiers or helicopter gunships to take out the same individuals. But I also recognize how they depersonalize war, (well, maybe not anymore than standard bombings), and how their use could be allowed to escalate without adequate safeguards. Hopefully the conflict in Afghanistan will be over soon, at least as far as major US involvement is concerned and Al-Qaeda will be substantially defeated soon. War has always had moral quandaries, from the carpet bombing of Germany to Truman's decision to use atomic weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Texan for Gore]

Yes, President Carter is right to raise concerns. And no, drones aren't a simple issue but it doesn't help we know very little of what's going over there, yet they're killing innocent civilians over there in our name - whose lives are minimized by calling them "collateral damage." Kinda like torture tactics are minimized by calling it "enhanced interrogation." Are these techniques really going to make other countries like us? And is this completing about terrorism or other things? One can't help but wonder after Bush lied to us about the Iraq war.

And if they're so sure they're killing terrorists, why the problem with providing proof, rather than a kill list and no due process needed?

And drones aren't just going to be limited to war use. They're already conditioning us to accept them here too. Do you like the idea of our police departments becoming militarized? I certainly don't.

[ReElectAlGore2016]

you are really paranoid these days texan4gore...I think there are meds to help you ween your way off those kookie conspiracy theories :laugh:

I find it most interesting that you had not one word good to say about today's historic landmark supreme court decision on health care.

in 100 years, before and after, only LBJ with medicare was able to do anything, and this is the first time in 50 years forward movement was done on a real issue of human rights-
that is the right to health care in America, something America is about the only
nation in the world that does not want(due to Obama haters) everyone to have health care. (Speaking of death panels, more people die from not having health care insurance than a zillion drones doing kookie conspiracy theories.

btw- Jimmy carter is voting for Obama in 2012, like he did in 2008. last I looked
he has been at the White House numerous times.

Funny how much drudge like you are texan4gore...anything to get off the historic moment today isn't it.

but keep those kookie conspiracy theories coming bet you were hoping Obama lost today (btw- you did hear Bernie Sanders was thrilled to pieces when the court ruled, jumping up and down with joy. Unlike you, who throws his name around for some reason or other without realizing he is actually a socialist (great thing too)...
Bernie knows how slow things happen in America and how the system works
(much like Jimmy Carter does too).

something you don't seem to realize texan4gore is that people like Bernie, Dennis and Jimmy (since you seem to be on a first name basis with them), are allowed to say things that a president cannot in any way say in 2012.

much like Obama roped the a-holes today.
Slowly but surely the stuff happens, and I would say Obama has achieved 125% of what he promised, and maybe another 250% will occur from 2013-2017.

btw- the housing market is showing major signs of upward moving.
That is a good thing right? (not to the republicans and Obama haters).

btw- what due process was there when Truman murdered the Japanese and arrested and caged the ones he did not kill?

btw2-what due process did Trayvon have when he was assasssinated by Zimmerman to please the NRA nuts?

btw3-what due process did Jesus have when he was put on the cross?

btw4-what due process did the man in Texas have who was chained to the back of a truck as the 3 wacko racists drove and dismembered him?

btw5-what due process did the tens of thousands of liberals have when Ronald Reagan basically killed them by doing nothing while AIDS ravaged their body?

btw6-what due process did the blacks who were slaughtered on Danzinger Bridge
in New Orleans during Katrina daring to attempt to find dry land and some cool water get only to be shot in the head by vigilante police?

methinks you are being fed lines again from your facebook friends who rank up there with Karl Rove and Lee Atwater.(no don't say hi from me)

methinks2 you have constantly overlooked quite so many more abuses to humans rights in your own backyard, than the few terrorists taken out. (Again,the FBI has had their top 10 list, wanted dead or alive, and those were people who had not been tried (let alone the last decade America's most wanted tv show goes after people that have had no trials or due process themselves like the wanted dead or alive posters in the wild west.

yet you complain when peaceful things are done by law enforcement to prevent crime too...systems may not be perfect, but its like all you are advocating is 100%
anarchy with no penalty for any wrong doing.

your silence on today's health care ruling says it all. (And anything written now is too late).

btw texan4gore- back when Jimmy Carter was involved with habitat for humanity, did you ever spend a few hours either helping build a house or fundraising for them?

[Texan for Gore]

You think you got it all figured out, doncha?

As far as my silence yesterday on the SCOTUS ruling on the ACA, I don't think I've kept it a secret how I've felt about this particular health care bill, which incidentally, was written by and catered to the insurance industry. Did you want me to be a debbie downer and rain on your parade??? Then I would have been accused of being such. In your case, one can't win for losing. You are always ready to assume the worst. What did you say about paranoia?

I have mixed feelings about the ruling. I never thought the mandate was constitutional in forcing someone to buy private health insurance. If they can force people to do that, what else can they force them to do? But as Cenk pointed out, if they wanted to, they could lower the tax penalty for not having insurance to 0, and it would be like not having a mandate.

But as I said, I didn't like this particular bill, given it being a hand-out to the insurance companies, but I can accept that part of it, given that it will insure many more people, cover pre-existing conditions, cover kids till 26, expand medicaid, etc.

What I was hoping is that the SCOTUS would rule solely on the mandate part and pave the way for a single-payer system, but that won't happen now. But, I think I can come to terms with it. It's hard to really know until one can really see the benefits of it. One of my problems too is that I'm not too impressed with healthcare these days anyway - the way they ply nursing home patients and foster kids with meds that they don't even pertain to their illness and is dangerous - all to line the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies. So that's why I don't like the mandate part of it. But since it is considered more of a tax, maybe that will make it not seem so mandatory.

Anyway, what did you want me to do? Come here and put on a happy face for something I've had mixed feelings about? Glorify Obama for this gift to the insurance companies? How disingenious would that have been?

And Jimmy Carter may very well vote for Obama, but I don't see you raking him over the coals for anything negative he has to say. Or Sanders or Kucinich for that matter. Guess I'm just special in that way... :rolleyes:

And as far as all your "btws" go, when have I ever condoned any of those acts? I know I have publicly denounced several of those acts, including the Jaspar, Texas dragging of Byrd. I actually saw pictures of his dismembered body (at a training) and they were horrific, so please, don't presume to know how I feel on such matters.

Since you said it is too late what I might have to say today, you can take this all with a grain of salt. Since when did my opinion matter to you anyway?

Did you ever help with Habitat for Humanity or do you just like to point fingers at others?

[ReElectAlGore2016]

it costs ME money to pay for those that have no insurance or corporate cheap insurance.

what gets me is you hate corporations, yet you love the corporations cheaper insurance

the only people who will be taxed will be those not paying. All those with insurance won't pay.

and the top tax(fine) will be for the penalty LESS than one month that my family plan pays now EACH MONTH THAT IS.

your math is as fuzzy as Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin.

as for health care- we have idiots who don't get shots for their kids over some quack doctors phony issues (another kookie konspiracy theory that was proven false) and because those kids don't get shots, it puts every single other person who is pregnant or has a baby who did not yet get a shot for the childhood illness' and is bringing back illness that was cured 40 years ago now.
That is just plain idiotic, just because people believe in stupid konspiracy theories.

and as the populiation ages (thanks to health care, people are living longer, but it means everyone will need more health care longer, it does cost money.
Which means we all should have a FAIR tax to pay for it (like the French do.)

It may cost more out of pocket at the start, but lifetime, it is a helleva lot cheaper, and less stressful, and NO paperwork for the person and NO bills either.

It is amazing you seem to back Dick Cheney and the so called (as you call them) 1%ers who can and do get every modern thing available or in trials at the expense of all the others.

That is inhumane.

And I applaud Jimmy Carter for talking out. However, as you know, he is hated by the right, as is Ted Kennedy and Al Gore and all the other great dems, and Kucinich and Nancy and Bernie are considered nuts by them.

meanwhile President Obama is the president, today, and he learned what it takes
to get reelected (and to have the biggest primary upset in history in 2008).

what part of that don't you get?

I would have loved to see Carter win a second term in 2008, but even if he was running, he would not have won, but Obama did.
America does and always had a shameful human rights record, it is nothing new.
Just look at how many fish and mammals have died because of industry. How humane was that?

the one link you keep missing is that all those great democrats found a winner who was able to win through the system handed democrats. They all for the good of the party and the cause came together and helped Obama achieve office, knowing full well, none of the others would have made it in 2008.

and directly because of that- Hillary would be a huge favorite in 2016.

and because of Obama, he has given Elizabeth Warren the opportunity to become Senator, though why she is only tied I do not understand. Brown's popularity is
going to make it very hard for her to win as senator, something that should be a given. Go figure.

[Texan for Gore]

You act as if I asked for your insurance premiums to be so high. That's why I've been pushing for a single-payer/public option plan that would be fair to everybody.

You don't think we all have to pay for other people at some time or another. Look at the effects of shoplifting. We foot the bill for that or the bailout of the bankers or our humongous defense budget, yet we have no say in saying we don't want those things.

Btw, my job was not handed to me on a silver platter. I worked while putting myself through college. My parents helped in the beginning, but since it took me longer than 4 years, given that I was working, I took care of it after that and continued after I got married and even pregnant along the way. So I don't think I've been freeloading off of others.

The reason for my dislike of corporations should be obvious - because the majority of them abuse their power (politically especially) and they're greedy. They can't be happy just making a healthy profit. They have to crush the small businesses, which is little competition to them anyway. And it is not a level playing field. They get all the breaks, and big companies, such as Wal-Mart can buy merchandise so much cheaper than a small businees. Of course, they buy in bulk, so that makes a difference, but it is still not fair. It is heart-breaking to see your hometown spiral downwards. You talk that gas prices should be higher - well, people wouldn't have to drive so far to a job if there was more available in their own town, like it used to be before factories closed down.

You name me a special interest group that has not affected our lives detrimentally. Of course, oil and gas have served us well as far as getting around and advancing. But now that we know there are better ways out there, why do they have to fight going to those alternatives, or make alternative energy so outrageously expensive that no one can afford to go green. Btw, I saw a wind turbine at one of our local schools and I thought that was so cool. Could you imagine how many schools could save on their expenses by going to wind and solar energy? That could at least ease some of the burdens of their budgets while being green at the same time.

I guess we shall see how this healthcare bill works out. You know, it's hard not to be cautious with a 2,000+ page bill. Why couldn't they have just lifted the "65 and older" requirement for Medicare? Seems like that would have been much simpler.

[ReElectAlGore2016]

texan4gore-
one goes to California and marvels at the big Redwood trees

do you think the redwoods were planted at 280 feet tall?

everything comes from a little seed, and takes time to reach its full potential.

[Texan for Gore]

Okay, I get your drift. Patience is a virtue and all that jazz. :rolleyes: I hope I turn out being pleasantly surprised and know you long enough for you to tell me you told me so. :laugh: